* Changes to notification defaults

[ColeValleyGirl]

I have made changes that affect new users as follows:

• By default, they will automatically be subscribed to topics they create (they can turn this off per post using the relevant tick box on the posting screen, or for all posts in their profile.)
• By default, they will receive notifications by email for topic and forums to which they are subscribed. The Welcome email explains clearly how they can disable these emails.

I hope this will make the FHUG experience a little easier for new users. We will monitor whether the email default causes us any problems -- if too many users mark the emails as spam, we will have to reconsider.

Neither change affects existing users.

However... I may be able to introduce a change that defaults this setting:

image.png (5.05 KiB) Viewed 1258 times

to true for every posting (requiring all users to turn it off on a per basis if they did not want notifications of replies).

I've seen arguments here before that suggest this might be welcome, and also arguments that it isn't. (It would be independent of the email notification settings, so that if you have email notifications turned off, you would continue not to receive emails, just the little notification alert top right by your user name).

Views please... (dons tin hat, ducks and prepares to blame Baldrick's cunning plan).

[BillH]

I don't like the idea of automatically being opted-in to anything. If I want to be notified I will opt-in. This would include the notifications at the top by my name. I shouldn't have to opt-out.

Bill

[jelv]

However... I may be able to introduce a change that defaults this setting:

image.png

to true for every posting (requiring all users to turn it off on a per basis if they did not want notifications of replies).

Why?

You could promote that users can enable this to be on by default by changing the Notify me upon replies by default setting here: https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/ucp.php?i=ucp_prefs&mode=post (I already have that on so I automatically get notified of new posts in any topic I've participated in).

Or if you want to go a step further and apply that setting to everyone via the database (and tell them how to turn it off as above if they really don't want it).

[ColeValleyGirl]

However... I may be able to introduce a change that defaults this setting:

image.png

to true for every posting (requiring all users to turn it off on a per basis if they did not want notifications of replies).

Why?

It's been suggested in the past. I'm not keen on the idea, but thought I should ask the question.

Also, because we have a population of users who have registered but never posted. Under current arrangements they will not be automatically informed of responses to their first post.

[Valkrider]

Please don't turn it on by default for existing members. I turn it on when necessary I don't want to be forced to turn it off every time.

[Mark1834]

Agree - this is a forum, not a mailing list.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Agree - this is a forum, not a mailing list.

I've no intention of turning on emails for people who don't want them (like me).

Just asking if theres any support for defaulting to subscribing people to topics they create.

[AdrianBruce]

While I tend never to look at Notifications, they are a useful alert if someone's quoted me so I wouldn't want that facility cluttered up by notifications about replies to whatever topics are deemed to be of interest to me.

As I've said, I always go to "Unread Posts" so learn about all new posts and replies that way. Any replies to topics of no interest (Regular Expressions, for example!) are quickly skipped...

For clarity - I'm sure Regular Expressions are of incredible interest to many but I never went near them professionally so my eyes glaze over. I think I'd rather try to learn Einstein's Field Equations....

[ColeValleyGirl]

While I tend never to look at Notifications, they are a useful alert if someone's quoted me so I wouldn't want that facility cluttered up by notifications about replies to whatever topics are deemed to be of interest to me.

As I've said, I always go to "Unread Posts" so learn about all new posts and replies that way. Any replies to topics of no interest (Regular Expressions, for example!) are quickly skipped...

For clarity - I'm sure Regular Expressions are of incredible interest to many but I never went near them professionally so my eyes glaze over. I think I'd rather try to learn Einstein's Field Equations....

Adrian, this would only apply to topics you created.

Also, tsk tsk. Lua use Patterns, the baseborn child of Regular Expressions, not the pure and wonderful real thing.

[tatewise]

Helen, IMO it would help if you made it clearer exactly what settings you are referring to:
e.g.

1. Topic tools (spanner) menu Bookmark topic which is not ticked by default.
2. Topic tools (spanner) menu Subscribe topic which already seems to be ticked by default.
3. Posting OPTIONS tab Notify me when a reply is posted which is the same as b. above.

User Control Panel > Board preferences > Edit notification options >
Someone replies to a topic you have bookmarked governs Notification/Email for a. above.
Someone replies to a topic to which you are subscribed governs Notification/Email for b, & c. above.

I support enabling notifications for new users so they get an Email when any new post from them gets a reply.
That seems to be what many new users expect by default.
They have the option to change it via the User Control Panel > Board preferences > Edit notification options globally or post by post.

I have no fundamental objection to enabling Notify me when a reply is posted for existing users because that is also governed by User Control Panel > Board preferences > Edit notification options or post by post.

[BillH]

Agree - this is a forum, not a mailing list.

I've no intention of turning on emails for people who don't want them (like me).

Just asking if theres any support for defaulting to subscribing people to topics they create.

I must be missing something. Doesn't subscribing to a topic mean you will get notified by email of replies? If not, what is the purpose of subscribing?

Bill

[jelv]

I must be missing something. Doesn't subscribing to a topic mean you will get notified by email of replies?

Maybe!

It depends on your settings here: ucp.php?i=ucp_notifications&mode=notification_options

Notifications are listed when you click Notifications with the bell icon at the top beside your user name.

Only if you have ticked in the Email column in the Board Preferences, Edit Notification options will you receive emails.

[BillH]

I must be missing something. Doesn't subscribing to a topic mean you will get notified by email of replies?

Maybe! It depends on your settings here: ucp.php?i=ucp_notifications&mode=notification_options

Notifications are listed when you click Notifications with the bell icon at the top beside your user name.

Only if you have ticked in the Email column in the Board Preferences, Edit Notification options will you receive emails.

My second question was really about subscribing. Why would you subscribe if you didn't want notifications? I never subscribe to threads.

Bill

[ColeValleyGirl]

Helen, IMO it would help if you made it clearer exactly what settings you are referring to:

Mike, I'm referring to this setting that users see when they create a topic:

Screenshot 2024-01-30 172025.png (5.05 KiB) Viewed 1051 times

At present it defaults to whatever the user has selected in their Profile here:

Screenshot 2024-02-01 110934.png (33.24 KiB) Viewed 790 times

So if a user has chosen to be notified by default, it will be ticked; and if they if have chosen not to be optified by default it will be cleared.

Before they post, they have the opportunity to change the setting for that topic; and they can always change it subsequently via the Topic tools menu.

The change that I am seeking views about would default the setting that users see when they post to ticked (ignoring the setting in the Profile). Before they post, they would still have the opportunity to change the setting for that topic; and they can always change it subsequently via the Topic tools menu.

Why?

It has been argued in the past that receiving notification of replies is "what everyone expects these days!". And also that, "surely, nobody would create a topic and not want be notified when there are replies?" (I'm replaying what has been said when the subject has come up (repeatedly) before.)

Why this method?

• It makes life easier for people who have registered but not posted yet. They're unlikely to read any guidance before they post to change a setting in their profile; and when they don't get notified of replies (because that is default behaviour in a lot of places) they assume that nobody has answered and (maybe) that FHUG is no use to them.
• It still allows users to choose not to be notified. On the balance of probabilities(???), fewer people will not want to be notified of replies to a topic they create than do want to be notified, so most people won't need to do anything different. (Forcing everyone to always be notified would be wrong).
• It's reversible. Yes, I could hack the database to turn the relevant Profile setting ON for everyone, and tell them to turn it off if they really wanted to, but I couldn't undo that. I can turn this approach off and revert to using the existing Profile setting if it causes unforeseen problems.

[jelv]

I am 100% behind making the default for newly created accounts Yes.

My initial reaction to the suggestion that the setting should be ignored was it was asking for trouble and the reactions would be so strong it would have to be reversed. But...

People are overlooking that that that setting isn't the only setting that dictates whether emails are sent. You also need to look at the Edit notifications options screen: https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/ucp.php?i=ucp_notifications&mode=notification_options

Notification options.png (27.48 KiB) Viewed 1024 times

Turning off Email for Someone replies to a topic to which you are subscribed means no emails when Helen makes her change - a one time setting, not every time you post!

In case anyone isn't aware what notifications are (they are not necessarily emails as shown above), they are what you see when you click Notifications at the top right:

Notifications.png (118.55 KiB) Viewed 1024 times

The short cut to get to the Notification options screen is Settings at the top right of the second screen shot.

[jelv]

While I tend never to look at Notifications, they are a useful alert if someone's quoted me so I wouldn't want that facility cluttered up by notifications about replies to whatever topics are deemed to be of interest to me.

You can turn off Notifications as well as Emails for Someone replies to a topic to which you are subscribed

[tatewise]

Sorry Helen, but in my experience that explanation is not correct. Maybe you have highlighted the wrong option.

For me the option highlighted below governs ticking Notify me when a reply is posted not the Auto subscribe new topic option. For me the highlighted option is No and Notify me when a reply is posted is not ticked.
( If I set the option to Yes then Notify me when a reply is posted is ticked. )

image.png (50.64 KiB) Viewed 1016 times

I don't know what that Auto subscribe new topic option controls and for me is set Yes as above.
However, my Topic tools > Subscribe topic is always ticked regardless of that option setting.
Nevertheless, I am NOT subscribed to anything!

The Auto subscribe new topic Yes/No option and the Topic tools > Subscribe topic setting seem to be just an alternative way of managing Subscriptions.
( IMO the Topic tools > Subscribe topic tick setting is not intuitive. It must be clicked to enable Subscription and change it to Topic tools > Unsubscribe topic unticked! )

These are my Notifications settings and I NEVER get any EMAIL for subscriptions with the settings shown above.
The NOTIFICATIONS option refers to the Notifications bell next to your Username top right.

image.png (58.34 KiB) Viewed 1016 times

The FAQ at How do I bookmark or subscribe to specific topics? says:

You can bookmark or subscribe to a specific topic by clicking the appropriate link in the “Topic tools” menu, conveniently located near the top and bottom of a topic discussion.
Replying to a topic with the “Notify me when a reply is posted” option checked will also subscribe you to the topic.

According to that ticking Topic tools > Subscribe topic is the same as ticking Notify me when a reply is posted but for me one is ticked and the other is not and I get no Emails, so I'm confused about what the Topic tools > Subscribe topic setting achieves.

[jelv]

I've just tried two new topics.

If the option Auto subscribe new topic is on new topics will appear here: https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/ucp.php?i=ucp_main&mode=subscribed

If it is off they don't.

If the topic is subscribed the setting for Someone replies to a topic to which you are subscribed on https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/ucp.php?i=ucp_notifications&mode=notification_options applies.

[tatewise]

John, I have just repeated your experiment and can confirm that I get the same Manage subscriptions effect.
All that has changed is that I have this morning clicked the SUBMIT button in the Edit posting defaults dialogue.
So I will correct my earlier posting.

The Topic tools > Subscribe topic setting is the opposite of what I expected.
When ticked it means you must click it to Subscribe to the posting.
It then changes to Topic tools > Unsubscribe topic which is not ticked and must be clicked to Unsubscribe.

If Auto subscribe new topic is Yes then new topics have the Topic tools > Unsubscribe topic option.

It seems the Notify me when a reply is posted tick option and the Notify me upon replies by default: Yes/No setting is simply an alternative way of achieving the same Subscription effect.

[LornaCraig]

The discussion so far illustrates that the options available for emails and notifications are confusing, even for existing long term users. When new users have a question they just want to get an answer. They don’t want to spend time wading through settings. Therefore the default settings should ideally let them know, somehow, when an answer has been posted. This has now been achieved:

I have made changes that affect new users as follows:

• By default, they will automatically be subscribed to topics they create (they can turn this off per post using the relevant tick box on the posting screen, or for all posts in their profile.)
• By default, they will receive notifications by email for topic and forums to which they are subscribed. The Welcome email explains clearly how they can disable these emails.

I hope this will make the FHUG experience a little easier for new users. We will monitor whether the email default causes us any problems -- if too many users mark the emails as spam, we will have to reconsider.
Neither change affects existing users.

I think this is a good move. New users may just sit and wait for an email. If they become quite active and find they are getting too many emails they can disable them.

The Welcome email for new users could also mention the Notifications method as an alternative to receiving emails, but I think the suggestion about changing the Notifications to ON by default is an unnecessary extra step, and potential irritation to existing users.

Views please... (dons tin hat, ducks and prepares to blame Baldrick's cunning plan).

How's the hat doing?

[ColeValleyGirl]

How's the hat doing?

Wubble

[ColeValleyGirl]

re email frequency, is it worth mentioning that, if you've opted for notification on a topic you create, you will only receive one email telling you there are replies before you visit the topic again. So, if perchance you don't want to get notified, and you forget to turn it off, and you have email notification turned on for replies, you will receive a single email (with instructions on how to turn it off).

However, I have made one mistake in what I've said: the 'Notify me of replies' posting option does not only apply to topics you create, but also to replies you post, which might make it more of a nuisance if you have email notifications turned on.

(I knew there was a reason I'm not keen on it )

[tatewise]

Ah! That is the difference between Notify me upon replies by default and Auto subscribe new topic.

The former has the unwanted side-effect you mention whereas I think the latter only applies to New postings.
So would it be better to enable the latter for new users and not the former?

I don't think anything needs to be said about Email frequency because the Email text says:
No more emails will be sent until you visit the topic.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Ah! That is the difference between Notify me upon replies by default and Auto subscribe new topic.

The former has the unwanted side-effect you mention whereas I think the latter only applies to New postings.
So would it be better to enable the latter for new users and not the former?

Yes, but there isn't a phpBB ext that achieves that (or rather, not one that works -- I have looked/tested extensively), and I'm not hacking the phpBB code or the database. I do plan to keep looking as it is the better option.

Of course, if the change we're discussing is implemented, new users will benefit from it as well and I can turn off the setting that defaults them to also get notifications on topics they reply to.

I don't think anything needs to be said about Email frequency because the Email text says:
No more emails will be sent until you visit the topic.

I only mentioned it here because people in this conversation might not have been aware -- as Lorna said,

The discussion so far illustrates that the options available for emails and notifications are confusing, even for existing long term users

[AdrianBruce]

The discussion so far illustrates that the options available for emails and notifications are confusing, even for existing long term users. ...

I'd agree with that - the term "notification" has a number of meanings - it's not obvious to me if I just look at the word, whether it refers to email notifications or something at the top of the screen where it says "Notifications" or ...

It got set many years ago, I've not altered it for years, it still works how I want it to, and, like data specifications in COBOL, I've pretty much forgotten the settings. Fortunately, we seem to be settling on proposals that won't frighten the horses by altering anything for people like me.