* Birth certificate not found at GRO England

[YorkieF]

I wonder if anyone can help me, I'm looking at getting a birth certificate for my great grandmother from the GRO in London, United Kingdom. However when I go to order it, the site says not found.
I've got the details as in year 1877, Q2, Volume 1c * page 570 and her name is Elizabeth Louise Brown.
It was obviously recorded, has anyone had this experience and possibly be able to advise what to do next?
Many thanks

[AdrianBruce]

Where are you getting that from because I'm not seeing it in FreeBMD?

[ColeValleyGirl]

Where did the reference come from?

Posted at same time as Adrian.

Edited to add: There are chunks of missing birth registrations in the GRO indices -- they either got missed in the original copying between the local Registrar and the GRO, or got missed or corrupted in the digitisation. I know of a number that are findable on FreeBMD and via the local indices, but no longer orderable via the GRO (although some of them were at one point).

[Jean001]

I have encountered this (where the GRO's search does not find the record) a number of times for records that I have found listed, e,g,, on FreeBMD. I check the reference against online images of the index pages, then enter the details via the GRO's 'Place an Order' menu.

[TimTreeby]

The only Elizabeth Louise Brown I can find with that Vol no and page No is one born in 1877 in the Mile End Registration District.

Doing a search on GRO site Elizabeth Louisa Brown doesn't show, but by looking at other people who are on page 570, have found a possible indexing problem.

GRO has a Elizabeth Louise BUCKLAND as well as a Agnes BUCKLAND.
FreeBMD only shows Agnes BUCKLAND and Elizabeth Louise BROWN

So is possible that GRO have made a mistake on their Indexing.
Have submitted an error correction to GRO, so hopefully they will investigate and then change it, if proven to be wrong.

[tatewise]

Yes, I can confirm that FreBMD entry for Q2 1877 (not 1887) and FindMyPast has the same entry.

FreeBMD gives:
Births Jun 1877 (>99%)
BROWN Elizabeth Louise Mile End 1c 570
BUCKLAND Agnes Mile End 1c 570

[YorkieF]

Sorry everyone that I put in the wrong date on the 1st post. I was going to post the jpg of the Freebmd record with it which would have shown everyone the problem but wasn't sure whether I was allowed to do that.
Thanks everyone and Tim for submitting an error correction. Hopefully GRO will be able to fix it

[AntonyM]

There are certainly some issues with the GRO on-line index, but then there are many problems with the old printed indexes too.

The main confusion seems to stem from an expectation that the on-line index and the printed indexes (as seen on FreeBMD, Ancestry, FMP etc) should be exactly the same and that any mis-match is automatically an error.

The GRO on-line index wasn't created from the existing printed indexes, but was done by re-indexing images of the copy registers that GRO hold. If there was an error made in the compilation of the old paper index, then it shouldn't be repeated in the on-line index, but there is the possibility that those doing the re-indexing of the entries have read names differently, sometimes correctly, but perhaps not. This is further complicated by the indexing rules used being different, especially around the indexing of births to unmarried parents ( and in other ways too).

This all means that is is normal, and in fact expected, to occasionally get different results when searching in the two different ways - in some cases it can actually be beneficial.

Doing a search on GRO site Elizabeth Louisa Brown doesn't show, but by looking at other people who are on page 570, have found a possible indexing problem.

GRO has a Elizabeth Louise BUCKLAND as well as a Agnes BUCKLAND.
FreeBMD only shows Agnes BUCKLAND and Elizabeth Louise BROWN

This does indicate some sort of anomaly - it could be a simple indexing error, but it could also be because of different surnames appearing on the entry .... no way of knowing without ordering copies (at least they are only £2.50 now)

If there is an error then GRO should hopefully correct it - but don't be too surprised if the response to an error report often comes back as "no amendment necessary".

[YorkieF]

Oh dear, well I've tried orderiing that 1877 and one for an Elizabeth Louisa Brown born in 1876 in Poplar, I'll soon find out either way. Fingers crossed.

[fhtess65]

Did you not choose the digital image option? That should have given you access right away.

Oh dear, well I've tried orderiing that 1877 and one for an Elizabeth Louisa Brown born in 1876 in Poplar, I'll soon find out either way. Fingers crossed.

[victor]

There is an alternative to FreeBMD. It is UKBMD this is lists details from the local register office. For a marriage it lists where the marriage took place (Register Office or name of church) UKBMD gives a reference number for ordering the certificate from the local register office. This certificates are exact copy of the original certificate. The coloured GRO certificates are extracts from the original certificate.
In the London area one can try the Metropolitan archives and down load a free copy of the certificate (I have done this a few times)

Victor

[YorkieF]

Thanks Victor

[fhtess65]

Really? I've never seen anything downloadable for free at the LMA website...Must explore even more.

<SNIP>
In the London area one can try the Metropolitan archives and down load a free copy of the certificate (I have done this a few times)

Victor

[Gowermick]

What everyone seems to have overlooked is that the original GRO indexes were handwritten. At some point these were transcribed into typewritten indexes. As we are all aware, transcribing leads to further errors being introduced. So to eliminate this source of error, always try to see the original handwritten entries if at all possible.

[RS3100]

And the original handwritten register entries are held by district registration offices. The copies held by GRO are also transcripts, laboriously copied from the original records by the registrars and periodically sent to GRO. The GRO copies can also contain errors as in the example I mentioned here:

https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 62#p138562

[fhtess65]

And it's also always possible the clerk at the district registration office made an error...ALL documents contain the possibility of error.

And the original handwritten register entries are held by district registration offices. The copies held by GRO are also transcripts, laboriously copied from the original records by the registrars and periodically sent to GRO. The GRO copies can also contain errors as in the example I mentioned here:

https://www.fhug.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 62#p138562

[RS3100]

And it's also always possible the clerk at the district registration office made an error...ALL documents contain the possibility of error.

Yes, of course that is also true, and the informant could also have lied. But the local district copy, if it is an image of the original register, is as close as we can get to what was recorded at the time, whether that was true or not, and reduces the possibility of (further) errors being introduced in subsequent copies.

[YorkieF]

Thanks to everyone - it's a lovely feeling when you smash through the brick wall that you've had for years. Apparently my great grandmother was born as Frances Elizabeth Louise Brown and it all ties in with the census returns up to her marriage. Thanks again.

[Uppedsticks]

Free copy certificates. I gather from Victor that free certificates are available from the LMA. I have just explored their website but it says 'LMA does not hold any certificates or indexes' and need to be ordered from the GRO. So would be interested to know how he managed to obtain free ones?
Christine

[RS3100]

I assumed from Victor's post that he's referring to copies of the original parish register marriage entries that LMA hold. if you order a marriage certificate from GRO you get a copy of the same register entry on a fancy piece of paper.

But I'm not sure about them being freely available at LMA. Many of the parish registers held by LMA are searchable and viewable on Ancestry, but I think if you go to LMA's website and search for such records they often refer you to Ancestry to view them - "free" of course if you have an Ancestry subscription!

[victor]

It has been awhile since I got a certificate from Metropolitan Archives. I didn't do a search for them they just popped on a name I was searching on Ancestry and it directed me to the archives where I downloaded a copy

Victor