* Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

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David Potter
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Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 11 Feb 2020 19:17

Hi Forum
I'm hoping someone can help with this request. I would like to manually change the Source: Publication Information field from within a Source record and then have someway (Plug-In perhaps) change the linked Citation(s): Where Within The Source field for this specific Source Record only. I have tried using the Search and Replace Plug-In but it often finds other related Sources and Citations due to matching data, so I find I have to check each Update which takes time, rather than let the Search and Replace Plug-In run to completion without intervention.

I have searched the Plug-In list but can't anything to help with this. Would welcome any efforts to help me with this.

Kind regards

David Potter

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by tatewise » 11 Feb 2020 19:45

Hi David,
That is a fairly unique requirement, so there won't be an existing Plugin for that.

Reading between the lines, I think you want to be able to change the Publication Info in a number of Source records, and also (automatically if possible) change every linked Citation so its Where within Source field is the same as the associated Publication Info field.

If that is the case, it begs the question, why all that duplication?
The point of Method 1 Source Citations like that is the details are held once in the Source record and nowhere else.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 12 Feb 2020 12:08

Hi Mike
Thanks for the reply. And yes you raise a good point. I use AS and what seemed like a good idea at the time (2+ years ago) I set it to populate Citations > Where Within Source to reflect the Source > Publication Info. I did this so I can instantly see the Publication Info from with the Individual Property Box with the Source Panel Opened rather than have to click back and forth to see what is in the Source itself. Or click the Source + to open up the Source Data Elements. Hope that makes sense.

The attached image shows how I'm making use of the current setup. I would certainly welcome any suggestions to improve on what I'm doing and hopefully remove this duplication which is a real burden to maintain.

Kind regards

David Potter
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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by tatewise » 12 Feb 2020 12:27

David, you did not explain the purpose of seeing that Where within Source detail from the person's Property Box.
In your example it appears to show the Birth Certificate number and GRO Birth Index reference.
But what use do you make of those immediately visible details?
Why are other details in the Source record less important?

Faced with a similar need, another user includes such details in the Source record Title.
That resolves the requirement of making them immediately visible without any duplication.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 12 Feb 2020 12:53

Hi Mike
I have returned from a long break in my research and use of FH (nearly two years). And I'm finding issues with how I have set it up for use, and it's use with AS. I have also decided to make a full and through validation/clean up and check of all Sources. Seeing the Where Within Source without jumping into the Source shows me quickly the essence of the Source data I found a long time ago. In particular The characteristics of the source, is a Certificate or just a GRO reference and finally the Mother's Maiden Name.

You mention a similar need by another user. That sounds interesting to embed the current Publication Info/Where Within Source into the Source Title but as you can see that would make my current Source Titles much longer.

Your thoughts most welcome...

David

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 12 Feb 2020 13:01

Mike I should have mentioned if it is a certificate the certificate number is placed at the beginning of the data in the Where Within Source so quickly becomes apparent and useful.

David

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by Jane » 12 Feb 2020 13:26

If you are intending upgrading to V7 when it comes out, you might want to hold fire on reviewing your sources in case you want to take advantage of Source templates and the custom footnote options.
Jane
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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 12 Feb 2020 13:39

Hi Jane, Thank you for joining in. Yes I would for sure like to upgrade to Ver 7. When it becomes available. I have been trying to find out what new features will be available but cannot find any info. Can you point me to where I can read up on the Source Template feature? As you say I don't want to make rash decisions on my current Source data setup. But equally I need to address my immediate need to challenge what I did years ago. Regretting now I never attended any of your courses.

Kind regards

David

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by arthurk » 12 Feb 2020 13:51

David Potter wrote:
12 Feb 2020 13:01
Mike I should have mentioned if it is a certificate the certificate number is placed at the beginning of the data in the Where Within Source so quickly becomes apparent and useful.
The certificate number you quoted (DK 848199) refers to the physical piece of paper that you have, but this is similar to the number printed on a cheque and has no inherent link to the registration itself.

Every paper certificate has a unique number, and while there might be official records indicating which birth (etc) entry was copied onto any particular form, these aren't made public. Moreover, since there can be multiple copies of a certificate for any given event, each one will have a different number on it, even though the content of the certificate will be the same.

So although in your scheme the number is apparent, I would question whether it is actually useful. If anyone wished to follow your research paths the normal method would be to use the publicly available GRO or local register office reference number.

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by tatewise » 12 Feb 2020 14:07

Jane makes a valid point, so consider that before going too far, but Calico Pie do not publish such details prior to release due to commercial confidentiality.

Yes, the Title would be longer but whether that matters depends on monitor screen size & resolution.
However, thinking about your specific purpose I have some other ideas.

Regarding the case of Mother's Maiden Name, that is only relevant where cited against the Mother's Name field and not in your example where it is cited against the Principal's Name field. Anyway, it is not a research review consideration, but longer term citation advice about a source for her maiden name, which will hopefully be superseded by a Birth/Baptism source eventually.

I suspect the majority of cases are where you want to differentiate between BMD Index and BMD Certificate.
You don't really need the detailed Publication Info but just an indication of which type of source.
One idea is to modify the Title to say Birth Index ... versus Birth Cert ... and similarly for Marriage & Death.
Then those that say neither Index nor Cert have not been inspected yet.
The remainder immediately indicate whether you have the Certificate or just the Index.
You could start that strategy now without jeopardising any impact from FH V7.

A technique that many use is to have a single Method 2 'lumper' GRO Birth Index source record.
Then the Citation holds the Reference in Where within Source and links to that one source.
There is little or no duplication of the Reference as it is only cited against the Birth and maybe the Name.
When the Certificate is obtained, its specific Source Citations replace the GRO Index citations.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 12 Feb 2020 14:21

Hi Mike, continued thanks.

I use the Source Type to identify whether GRO Certificate or GRO Index. See attached. It is beginning to dawn on me how much work I have created for myself maintaining all of this.

I sometimes have a combined Source with both Certificate and GRO Index captured as images and stored as Media in the Source. :shock:

I'm trying to follow your recommendation but I'm so far removed from simplicty I'm struggling to understand the concept. Is there some Best Practice Guide I could read to understand how I might go about your suggestion?

David
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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by Jane » 12 Feb 2020 14:44

I am treading a fine line as Calico tie any beta (and pre-beta) users to keep quiet about possible new features. They have announced "Improved source and citation functions" and suffice to say they are very powerful, that said all existing sources are carried across, so any work you do will be fine, however the new optional way of working has some advantages for speed and consistency, so if you are intending reviewing all your existing sources, it may be worth planning your new method rather than jumping in.

Personally I currently split all my sources other than GRO Indexes or Transcription only databases which I lump.
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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 12 Feb 2020 15:48

Thank you Jane. Very much appreciate you sharing this - I'll hold back from making radical changes to my Sources as you suggest. I could really do with some guidance on how best to do this - I think I've made a classic 'over complicate' things, and my use of AS hasn't helped things along. Not blaming AS but me as the user. Just trying to apply consistency but making a mountain out of things.

Can you point me to any best practice guidance that I can adopt with FH in it's current version. I just need to be doing something to undo the errors I have made.

Thanks

David

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by tatewise » 12 Feb 2020 16:10

I'm not sure you have made that many errors. Your Source record screenshot is quite similar to mine.
I too often include the GRO Index Media with the Certificate Media in the same Source record.
There is nowhere more convenient to put it without creating a separate Source record (pointless) or adding it to a lumper Citation (inconsistent).

You have correctly used the Source Type to differentiate Index from Certificate.

It seems your main issue is the visibility of that Type from the person's Property Box.
I am not sure which of my suggestions you don't understand.
But the simplest is to simply insert the word Index or Certificate (or Cert for short) into the Source record Title to match its Type. Yes, you have to do that by hand unless you think it worth writing a Plugin. But a Query will quickly list those where Type contains Index but Title doesn't, and similarly for Cert. Then you can quickly work through a batch at a time amending the Titles.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 12 Feb 2020 17:37

Hi Mike. It was the lumper method I didn't quite understand. Like how to convert what I have now to that approach. And then you mention use only against Birth and Name. But I have Residence, Informants, Occupation etc used with Birth and with other types of Sources.

But I completely get what you say in the last post. I will have a think about how I can structure the Source Title to include the info I need to see quickly. And then Clean out those duplicate citation Where Within Source data.

Thank you so much for the advice offered.

Kind regards

David

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by tatewise » 12 Feb 2020 21:32

Just to clarify the point about Birth and Name, if you only have GRO Birth Index then the only information is the registration Quarter & District of Birth and the person's Name, so only those two facts can have Citations.
Typically with the 'lumper' technique just one Citation is created against the Birth event and linked to the single GRO Birth Index Source record, with the Index registration details in Where within Source.
Thus it is very obvious that only the GRO Birth Index has been discovered.
[ P.S. EDIT: Forgot that some recent GRO Birth Index entries include Mother's Maiden Name too :oops: ]

Those other Residence, Informants, Occupation, etc, facts only come with the Certificate.
When all those facts and their Citations get added and linked to the new splitter Certificate Source record, then the GRO Birth Index Citation may be deleted.

It would be difficult for you to switch to that scheme retrospectively.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 13 Feb 2020 14:07

Thank's Mike I get the first part and totally agree. But the second part repeated below? When you use the term 'splitter' Certificate Source Record. Are meaning it is split across a number of Individuals and Facts? AND the Certificate Source record now also contains the info/image from the 'lumper' GRO Index Source which can now be deleted?

Those other Residence, Informants, Occupation, etc, facts only come with the Certificate.
When all those facts and their Citations get added and linked to the new splitter Certificate Source record, then the GRO Birth Index Citation may be deleted.


Sorry to drag this out - but I need to sure I understand your approach to this.

David

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by Jane » 13 Feb 2020 14:27

Just to muddy the waters.

I have just 3 sources for GRO index, one for each index type. I record the Where with in source information for the district, reference and other info such as Spouse surname for Marriages or Mothers Maiden name for Births (the older birth indexes on the GRO site contain this for all Births.

For Birth Certificates I have lots of sources one for each certificate, with the image of the certificate attached to the source.
When I have a birth certificate I do not remove the GRO index citation as it can be useful to have all the sources used to get the conclusion. Any given Birth Certificate source can be cited many times, around 15 if you cite everything on it.
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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by PeterR » 13 Feb 2020 14:38

I don't know whether this will help, but like Jane, I too am a "Lumper" for GRO Indexes (and similar) with one Source record in FH for each Index. And I too am a "Splitter" for certificates and censuses, with one Source record in FH for each Certificate and for each Census Household, and with an image linked to each Source record (or two images if a household spans two census pages).
Peter Richmond (researching Richmond, Bulman, Martin, Driscoll, Baxter, Hall, Dales, Tyrer)

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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by tatewise » 13 Feb 2020 15:34

I think Davids hang-up is with the term splitter.
David, you are already using splitter Source records for your Birth and all other types.
Method 1 splitter Source records have one entry for each specific document (one Birth Certificate).
Method 2 lumper Source records have one entry for an entire collection of documents (GRO Birth Index).
Checkout Knowledge Base > Sources and Citations - how to use them and its links to Method 1 'splitter' and Method 2 'lumper' explanations.
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Re: Update Source and All Linked Citations > Where Within The Source

Post by David Potter » 14 Feb 2020 10:11

Sorry for the late reply.
And a big thank you Mike, Jane and Peter. Now I see it and understand how to restructure my Sources and greatly simplify what I am doing. A bit of work involved but it will for sure save a lot of unnecessary maintenance going forward.

Thank you all for your help and patience... :)

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