* Marriage Witness Info Missing

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PyreneesPirate
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Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by PyreneesPirate » 19 Feb 2017 19:05

Hello,

I have a quick question (well I think it might be very simple!) I used Ancestral Sources to input a marriage which had two individuals as witnesses. One was a person currently in my project and one was a just a name. I checked the info and saved to FH. The witnesses are now duly recorded against the marriage when I go to one of the Individual Records - Records Window of the bride or groom. So far so good, but when I visit the Witness individual who is currently in my project, via the Individual Records - Records Window and expand their details, there doesn't appear to be an entry for the date / witness to marriage details on view. When I click on the Individual Record and bring up the Focus Window and click Facts there is an entry for the individual. So my question is.....have I missed something.....A fact is listed in the Focus Window - Facts Tab but it is not showing in the Individual Record file?

I am comparing two projects, my main project and a small project and am making sure that I haven't missed something in my main file. I've seen the merge file info but just can't bring myself to press the merge button!!

Any help would be very much appreciated.

PP

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tatewise
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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by tatewise » 19 Feb 2017 22:42

On a technical point, what you refer to as the Focus Window is actually the Property Box docked to the right of the Focus Window, and that Property Box can appear in conjunction with any of the workspace windows identified in Tools > Preferences > Workspaces.

What you are describing is perfectly normal.
Witnesses are only recorded within the facts of the Principal person's Individual record shown in blue (or for facts such as Marriage and Divorce their joint spouse Family record shown in brown). So to be pedantic, for a marriage, the Marriage Event and Witnesses are in the spouse Family record in the Records Window.

The Facts tab shows facts derived from potentially many records including :-
  1. The Individual record itself ( blue bullets).
  2. The joint spouse Family record(s) ( red bullets).
  3. The Timeline facts from Individual records of many relatives ( grey bullets & shaded background).
  4. Witnessed facts from any Individual/Family records (=> blue arrows and blue witnesses icon in More column).
But if you switch to the All tab you will see the same data as in the Records Window.

Most Reports only include the first two listed above, but Narrative Reports also include Witnessed facts.
I hope that clarifies things.

I have updated Knowledge Base > Property Box Dialogue: Individuals: Facts Tab with most of the above details.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by PyreneesPirate » 20 Feb 2017 13:49

Hello Mike,

Thanks for your reply and thanks for clarifying.

As I mentioned in my previous e-mail, I am comparing a large database with a small one (manually, so I do not miss anything). In the small database I have an entry in an Individual Record file for the person being a Marriage Witness (in blue) and it has child fields also, Date, Place, Source, Note and Sentence. So, I can see that the individual has been a witness to a marriage and the date that she was the Witness along with all the other details i.e. Birth, Death etc with the Facts at the bottom all in date order of course.

I was wondering how I would have been able to get this Marriage Witness entry in this individuals file? Did I somehow do it manually? I can take a pic of the individuals file if you so wish just to further explain if required.

Thanks
PP

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by tatewise » 20 Feb 2017 14:40

It sounds like you may be talking about an Individual custom Marriage Witness fact, as opposed a Family record Marriage event Witness. I believe either can be created by Ancestral Sources depending on the options chosen and how long ago. The Marriage event Witness option was only added after FH V6 was released 2 years ago.

A screenshot of the Facts tab &/or the Records Window showing the Marriage Witness details would help.
Use the Knowledge Base > Utility ~ Windows Snipping Tool to create the image file and then use the Attachments tab below the Post a reply box here.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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PyreneesPirate
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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by PyreneesPirate » 20 Feb 2017 18:38

Hello Mike,

Thanks for your help again and as mentioned, I have attached some screenshots.

The one for MA Bennett with the Marriage Witness attached in the Individual Record is from my small database. The other two are from my main database. One show's the groom's Individual record (Alf Rendall) with his marriage and highlights MA Bennett as a Witness, the second shows the Individual Record of MA Bennett with no mention of being a Witness with the Focus Window Facts showing her as a Witness. This is also from the my main database....I hope this helps, but it doesn't seem to make any sense.

Regards
PP
Attachments
Matilda with Marriage Witness not recorded in Individual record but in focus window facts.JPG
Matilda with Marriage Witness not recorded in Individual record but in focus window facts.JPG (221.87 KiB) Viewed 2289 times
Matilda with Marriage Witness recorded.JPG
Matilda with Marriage Witness recorded.JPG (104.53 KiB) Viewed 2289 times
Alf Rendall Marriage (Matilda Ann Bennett Witness).JPG
Alf Rendall Marriage (Matilda Ann Bennett Witness).JPG (194.05 KiB) Viewed 2289 times

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by tatewise » 20 Feb 2017 19:49

OK, I can see why you are mystified, because your two databases use both of the witness alternatives I mentioned earlier.

BTW: As I requested, please stop calling the Facts tab of Property Box the Focus Window.
Your screenshot of MA Bennett [12] for the large database is the Records Window and a floating Property Box.
The Focus Window is the one with the Spouses & Children tab and the Focus person at the top with photos.

The small database for MA Bennett [38] has an Individual custom Marriage Witness attribute fact.
When displayed in the Facts tab of the Property Box it will have blue bullet.
I suspect the standard Marriage Event for A Rendall & H Jones has a Source Citation for same Marriage Certificate.
This may have been added by hand or by Ancestral Sources many years ago before FH V6 fact Witnesses were added.
In Tools > Fact Types you should find listed Marriage Witness Attribute Custom and Edit will show its Definition.

The large database for MA Bennett [12] uses the FH V6 new fact Witnesses format.
Presumably Ancestral Sources added the Marriage and Witnesses within the last year or two.
As the Records Window shows for A Randell [25] (note the different surname) the Witness fields are subsidiary to the Marriage Event in the brown spouse Family record for A Randell & H P Jones.
The 1st Witness field is linked to the Individual record of F Randell [11].
The 2nd Witness field is linked to the Individual record of MA Bennett [12].
Those links are just like links to Source or Media records; there is nothing in the target record to show the connection.
However, FH knows the connection exists and shows the Witnessed Marriage details with a => blue arrow in the Facts tab, which also shows Death of father, Marriage to Frank, Birth of daughter & Birth of son facts that are NOT in the Individual record of MA Bennett [12]. The point being that many details appear in the Facts tab to create a timeline and many of them are NOT held in the Individual record.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by PyreneesPirate » 20 Feb 2017 21:03

Hello again Mike,

Thanks for your explanation.....sorry about me naming the screens wrongly. As you may have gathered, I do not use the program to the full extent, even though I would very much like to.

It does have a blue bullet next to Witness event in the Facts area for the small database.

You are correct in that I used Ancestral Sources for both entries but the one for the large database was more recent and probably I have upgraded FH since then as well. Can I create the same entry in the large database as the one shown in the small database for the Individual Record screen? If so, how and do I need to, now that FH has upgraded? If I re-input the marriage cert am I able to select the first method in Ancestral Sources so that it shows like the small database? I do tend to work in the Individual Record program rather than any other part of the program.

Hopefully, this info should clear it up.

Thanks again,
PP

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by tatewise » 20 Feb 2017 23:17

Whether you need to change either database is your decision ~ FH won't mind what you do.

It is simply a matter of whether you want to make the two databases consistently the same, and if so, which of two formats do you want to use into the future for all such BMD Witnesses entered via AS. Again that is only your decision, and will require AS to be customised to match that decision. An influencing factor is how many such BMD Witnesses you have entered, and perhaps the majority format is the one to go for. Let me know which way you want to jump and I can advise, i.e. change nothing, change to Custom Attribute, change to Fact Witnesses?

BTW: There is more than just the Marriage Witness differences between the two databases.
For example the names of the couple are A Rendall & H Jones in one and A Randell & H P Jones in the other.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by PyreneesPirate » 21 Feb 2017 12:51

Hello Mike,

Thanks again.

I quite like the version that shows an entry in the Individual Person's File and not hidden in the Marriage details of the bride or groom with the date etc (which happens to be in the small database), so if you could advise on how I can set this up for future entries it would be appreciated. I would also need to run some sort of report in the main database so I that I can determine the Witnesses that have been setup via the other newer process in AS and re visit these individuals and somehow convert them in line with the Individual record way. Is this possible?

My main database has more than 1000 individuals in it and I am updating this Dbase by viewing the smaller Dbase, to make sure I haven't missed anything from the smaller one.

Alf Rendall / Randell.....his birth certificate is Rendall in Corsley, Wiltshire and his death cert is Randell in Ebbw Vale, Monmouthshire. On his marriage cert to Harriet Jones, my GGF was a Witness along with his wife, he is down as Randell and his wife Matilda Ann Bennett was down as Rendell!! There you go.

Look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks again,
PP

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by tatewise » 21 Feb 2017 14:58

OK, I understand the purpose of the two Project databases.

To determine the new fact Witnesses run the standard Query called Witnessed Events.
For each Individual it will list up to 9 Events for which they have a Witness Role with Note, Date, and Principal(s).

To get a handle on your Custom Witness Attributes it would help if you could investigate the following :-
  • In Tools > Fact Types what Custom Witness Attributes are defined?
    One should be the Marriage Witness Attribute but there may be similar ones for Birth and Death but may be named Birth Informant and Death Informant. Can you attach a screen-shot of their Fact Definition dialogues.
  • Have you examples of use of those Custom Attributes in your Project database?
    They should share Source records for Birth, Marriage & Death with actual Birth, Marriage & Death events. What wording is used against each such type of attribute? e.g. The Marriage Witness attribute says Witness to Marriage of <Groom> & <Bride>. A screen-shot would help.
  • In Ancestral Sources are there any Associated Individuals templates?
    Use Tools > Options and in each of Birth/Baptism/Marriage/Death/Burial settings page check the Associated Individuals top right by clicking Edit and looking at the Associated Individual Type drop-list.
    Do any of those drop-list options match the Witness Attributes found above?
    Choose any that match, or if not just choose Witnesses.
    The Method:, Attribute:, and Value: fields should match what you found above, but don't worry if they all just use the Witness Role method.
    If you find any that match then a screen-shot would help.
    Do you remember setting up such Associated Individual Templates?
    They may have been accessed via the Birth/Baptism/Marriage/Death/Burial data entry Further Info tabs.
Remember that only a few attachments are allowed per posting, so you may need several replies if you have lots of screen-shots.
Armed with those software forensics we can tackle the job are setting up AS and correcting your Project.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by PyreneesPirate » 21 Feb 2017 20:48

Hi Mike,

Thanks again for you help.

I have run the Witness Query in my main database and I have 38 individual records with one individual having 4 Witness Events.

There are no Custom Witness Attributes Defined in the main database that I can see, also no Birth or Death Informant Attributes.

I looked in the small database for the same thing knowing that it is displaying the Witness Info differently in the Individual Record window and there is a Marriage Witness Attribute displayed with a blue bullet and gives the following LABEL = Marriage Witness, NAME = Marriage Witness, TYPE = Attribute, TIME FRAME = nothing displayed, FACT SET = nothing displayed, VISIBLE = undefined and STATUS = ticked. How this was created, I do not know.....maybe by AS?

I do not believe that I have changed anything in Ancestral Sources re Associated Individuals templates. The only thing that I have done is linked the Flags to Icons so that they show on the family tree diagram for Birth, Death and Census years etc after I have input one of these events.

As you can probably tell Mike, my use of the FH program is limited (but I do like the program, started in version 3) I am now going into territory that I am unfamiliar with and bearing an error on my part (which is still possible of course) I can only assume that the two different ways that FH displays the Witness Information is down to either a) a change in the AS program or b) a change to the FH program. Am I correct assuming this?

Is there something fairly simple that I can set up to run on the main database to convert the Witness Information to the Individual Record rather than the Bride or Groom? Or is this quite a complicated exercise?

Best regards and many thanks again.
PP

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by tatewise » 22 Feb 2017 13:11

Where I ask questions below, please answer them all.

In the Witnessed Events Query, are all the Witness cases just for Marriage Events?
Or have you any Witness cases for Birth, Death or other events?
If so, what are they?

Setup Family Historian Marriage Witness
The Tools > Fact Types > Marriage Witness entry is just a 'place-holder' for your Marriage Witness custom Attribute and is only shown because you have ticked Show Hidden.
The empty and undefined values indicate that there is no actual Fact Definition.
The entry only exists because AS has inserted the Marriage Witness fact into your database.
If you click the Edit button on the right it will offer to Create a new Definition, which you should do.
The default values are OK, except for the Sentence Template that we will return to later.

Are there any other similar undefined 'place-holder' entries listed for other custom Attributes?

Setup Ancestral Sources Marriage Witness
Use Tools > Options > Marriage settings and by Associated Individuals top right click Edit.
In the Associated Individual Type drop-list choose Witnesses and make following changes for Individual in file.
Method: choose Custom Attribute
Attribute: enter Marriage Witness to match the fact defined in FH above
Value: enter Witness to Marriage of {KEYPERSON} & {SPOUSE}
(You can obtain {KEYPERSON} and {SPOUSE} via << button.)
For Just names of individuals set Method: to Local Note

Similar changes will be necessary for other Associated Individual Types for Marriage, Birth, Death, etc, that you may choose to use in the future.

Answer those questions, and make those changes, then we can move on to check they work to your satisfaction, and consider how to convert all your new format Marriage Fact Witnesses, etc, to the above format.

The reason that new format was used is that FH introduced the new feature and AS offers to use it by default.
I suspect that when you installed the AS update and it asked if you wanted new Templates or old ones, you chose new.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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PyreneesPirate
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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by PyreneesPirate » 24 Feb 2017 18:37

Hello again Mike,

Sorry for the delay.....I have been away. I have tried to carry out your instructions, but probably need a bit more clarification on some minor points. See below.

Where I ask questions below, please answer them all.

In the Witnessed Events Query, are all the Witness cases just for Marriage Events?
Or have you any Witness cases for Birth, Death or other events?
If so, what are they?

I have 38 Marriage Witnesses, 2 Death Informants and 6 Birth Informants

Setup Family Historian Marriage Witness
The Tools > Fact Types > Marriage Witness entry is just a 'place-holder' for your Marriage Witness custom Attribute and is only shown because you have ticked Show Hidden.
The empty and undefined values indicate that there is no actual Fact Definition.
The entry only exists because AS has inserted the Marriage Witness fact into your database.

I do not have an existing Marriage Witness entry in the The Tools > Fact Types in my main database, so I suppose that I need to create one? So I have selected NEW FACT Type and Named it Marriage Witness, Custom, Event, Individual.

If you click the Edit button on the right it will offer to Create a new Definition, which you should do.
The default values are OK, except for the Sentence Template that we will return to later.

Are there any other similar undefined 'place-holder' entries listed for other custom Attributes?

Not sure, how do I determine this?


Setup Ancestral Sources Marriage Witness
Use Tools > Options > Marriage settings and by Associated Individuals top right click Edit.
In the Associated Individual Type drop-list choose Witnesses and make following changes for Individual in file.
Method: choose Custom Attribute
Attribute: enter Marriage Witness to match the fact defined in FH above
Value: enter Witness to Marriage of {KEYPERSON} & {SPOUSE}
(You can obtain {KEYPERSON} and {SPOUSE} via << button.)
For Just names of individuals set Method: to Local Note

Completed this for Marriage Witness

Similar changes will be necessary for other Associated Individual Types for Marriage, Birth, Death, etc, that you may choose to use in the future.

Not sure how to do this


Answer those questions, and make those changes, then we can move on to check they work to your satisfaction, and consider how to convert all your new format Marriage Fact Witnesses, etc, to the above format.

The reason that new format was used is that FH introduced the new feature and AS offers to use it by default.
I suspect that when you installed the AS update and it asked if you wanted new Templates or old ones, you chose new.

Hope this moves us on a little,
Thanks again
PP

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Re: Marriage Witness Info Missing

Post by tatewise » 24 Feb 2017 19:22

It would be helpful if you very carefully followed my instructions.
I didn't suggest you should create a NEW custom fact and unfortunately you've created the wrong type.
So first you must delete that definition in Tools > Fact Types by selecting Marriage Witness and click Delete button on right. Do this in your MAIN Project.

In your SMALL Project where the Marriage Witness fact exists, follow my instructions to click Edit button.

If there are any other 'place-holder' facts in your SMALL Project then they would be listed along with Marriage Witness with the same empty and undefined values, and only shown when Show Hidden is ticked.

You say your MAIN Project has 38 Marriage Witnesses, 2 Death Informants and 6 Birth Informants.
So in future you will want AS & FH to support Birth & Death Informants using the old format.
In the same way you chose the AS Mariage settings and defined Witnesses you must choose Birth settings and Death settings and in Associated Individuals define Custom Attributes with names such as Birth Informant and Death Informant respectively each with a suitable Value statement such as Informant of Birth/Death of {KEYPERSON} (choose the word Birth or Death as appropriate for the fact.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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