* Real Conundrum/Teaser

[jsphillips]

I am researching the CONWAY family who were nearly all born and died in St Lukes London.
1 First of all trying to get straight the first teaser, a Isaac William Conway
(a) there appear to be 2 Isaac Williams in DEATHS in Sept 1861 Quarter St Luke 1B 410 On looking in new GRO lookups he died aged 21 so he was born in 1840
(b) DEATH in Dec qtr 1909 Islington 1B 124 aged 70 so born in 1839

So to look up Births :- from 1838 to say 1841 ..only one Isaac William (or W ) appears as Sept Qtr 1839 St Luke 2 281.

2. So onwards to check Census's
Although there are many Isaac W or Isaac William Conways I am only concered with 1839 to 1840
I have used the GRO on births to validate mothers name.
1841 Census HO107 piece 1073 shows Peto's and Conway. in Guildford .. Isaac Conway 1840 .. the sept 1839 birth in 1 above shows Peto as mother. the census shows Elizabeth Conway 1815...this in fact elizabeth Caroline Peto born Dec 1814 St Lukes....she married Isaac Conway 8 October 1838 (not shown 1841 census)
All born out on 1851 Census HO107 piece 1522 13 Gloster building St luke showing father Isaac 1816 mother Elizabeth 1815 anf of course the Isaac shown as 11 in St Lukes. All other children on this census shows mother again as "Peto"

3 There are no Guildford or Surrey births of Isaac William Conway but it is fairly safe that the St lukes birth is correct as the mother as a "Peto" is correct.
so how come there are 2 deaths of a Issac William Conway in different years but both born in 1839 or 1840. see 1a above.
On checking Census late I see anothe Isaac William born 1840 on 1881 Census at St Lukes 7 Gloster Court St Lukes and again as Isaac on 1901 Census at 9 John Place St Lukes. 9 Gloster Court 1881 Census still shows Mother Elizabeth and 1851 Cnsus at 13 Gloster buildings shows Elizabeth.
I have tried Family search and Find my Past and am still confused
The main thing is I know I have right family and all births point to Peto as father line. as do the majority of Census' births It is strange that the Guildford Census of 1841 shows Isaac birth as Guildford (1 year earlier 1840) Yet no birth available for Surrey. Yet Peto is correct all children in most Census shown as Peto..Elizabeth Caroline Peto.
I have used Ancestry FMP Family Search and GRO and nothing is clear!!!!
I am knee deep in all of the paperwork I have ALL census's from 1841 to 1911 printed out ..all Birth data...all death data...all marriage data........and all children are Elizabeth Petos who married Isaac Conway in GUILDFORD (pls note marriage as Guldford)

Can some kind soul suggest anything. please

[TimTreeby]

There is a known problem with the latest GRO Index.

In that in some circumstances which are proven the age given at Death, should be an age in Months/Weeks/days etc rather than Years.

So is possible that the 1861 Death is for someone aged 21 Months, which would bring into play the Birth registered Q2 1860 in St Lukes.
If born Late Feb/March 1860 21 Months takes you to Dec 1861, so is a possibility.

Also a couple of clarifications.

The Conways/Peto's in 1841 are actually in Godalming not Guildford.
Also Isaac is stated as born out of County, so not born in Surrey.

[TimTreeby]

So what you have is

Isaac William CONWAY born Q2 1839 - RD St Lukes - Son of Isaac CONWAY and Elizabeth Caroline PETO.
Isaac William CONWAY marries Ann FISHER 31/10/1859 St James Church, Shoreditch. Image on Ancestry.
Isaac William CONWAY born Q1 1860 - RD St Lukes - Son of Isaac William CONWAY and Ann FISHER.
Actually born 8th March according to Baptism - found on Ancestry.

1861 Census in St Luke shows

Isaac W Conway Head Married Male 21 1840 Dyer St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Ann Conway Wife Married Female 20 1841 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England
Isaac W Conway Son - Male 1 1860 - St Luke's, Middlesex, England

I suspect that Isaac William CONWAY who dies Q4 1861 St Luke is the son of Isaac and Ann and should be 21 Months not 21 years.

Only way to be certain is to buy the Certificate.

[rfj1001]

Picking up from TimTreeby There is a baptism of Isaac William Conway 1 April 1860 in Finsbury to Isaac William Conway and Ann. Birth year was also 1860.

The 1861 census has him and his parents living in 46 Colman Street. I can't find any later census info but you have the death record for a person of identical name in Q4/1861 in the correct district which means part of your puzzle could be explained by an infant death.

Come to same conclusion you'll need to buy the cert to be sure

HTH

[tatewise]

As a general comment, in much of the discussion there has been little mention of Place of birth.
The Census records almost always (and Death records sometimes) give the Place of birth, and must be taken into account. Although they must also be taken with a pinch of salt, as Census records are notoriously innacurate, relying as they often do on myth & memory rather than documented evidence, and Death records as far as birth is concerned are often based on long past recollections rather than fact.

However, in this case the misinterpretation of months as years is most plausible, and can be fairly certainly verified.

[Russell]

Whilst the 100% way of getting to the bottom of the conundrum is to buy the certificate, before doing so and incurring costs I would try and be a bit cheeky

I would contact the GRO by email, explaining that you are trying to eliminate the possible child death and may be falling foul of the age at death issue. If you butter them up and perhaps go along the lines of that you'll be eternally grateful and will remember them in your will etc... you may just be lucky and get a sympathetic member of staff who will check their copy of the index for you for nothing.

A phone call may also do the trick, but the operators may have less time to be flexible with the rules

It may not work, but it is worth a try - I've been lucky in the past!

Good luck

[ColeValleyGirl]

Better still, contact the relevant Local Registrar -- I've found them to be much more helpful in the past when it comers to reference checking.

[Gowermick]

Here's a tip to determine whether gro.gov death is shown in months/weeks. After 1866, age (in years) is shown on freeBMD, so use this to compare whether gro.gov death is showing months or years. E.g. If gro.gov shows 18, but freebmd show 1, then it is fairly safe to assume gro.gov is erroneously showing age in months, instead of years.

Sadly, in this case, the death occured Before 1866

[jsphillips]

Thank you all very much for all your help which I have taken on board and will investigate.
the Conways in St Luke Holborn appear to be problematical in many ways. Intermingled families in same area and some others just going missing., ie no marriages or deaths anywhere.
I have also done full searches just on forenames in Ancestry FMP Family Search FreeBMD inc FreeReg to no avail.
Certainly I ihave double checked the normal death age in FreeBMD with the new Death age in the GRO index it is the same thanks anyway.