* Fact Entries

[R_Hewitt]

Hi Nick,

I’m not sure if this is an AS issue, an FH issue or an end-user (me!) issue so please forgive if I’m in the wrong part of the forum….

Let’s assume that Joe Bloggs has two sons – Tom and Dick. (Harry has not yet been born!)
When Tom is born, the ‘Fact’ in Joe Bloggs Facts tab reads “Birth of Son Tom” and the ‘Sentence’ reads something like Tom Bloggs was born [date] [place].
Joe was not the person who registered Tom’s birth.

However, when Dick was born, his father Joe did register the birth and was listed as an informant.
But, the ‘Fact’ in Joe Bloggs Facts tab reads “Birth” with no ‘Birth of son Dick’, and the ‘sentence’ reads (He was a (sic) Informant at Birth of Dick Bloggs on [date] in [place]) etc.

Is there a way that I can change the fact from “Birth” to Birth of Son Dick” in FH?
(a ‘real life’ example is shown in the attached screen shot).

FH 6.1.4
AS 5.0.0

Thanks, in advance,

Robert Hewitt

[Jane]

You can edit any sentence as a one off, by simply clicking on the sentence.

I can't think of a simple way to change the computed sentence, but I suspect using a combination of functions to compute the relationship text should be possible.

[tatewise]

I have moved this to the FH General Usage Forum because it is a Facts Override Template issue and nothing to do with AS.

Robert is not talking about the Narrative Sentence but the Fact column entry in the Facts tab that is highlighted in screenshot.

It may be possible to adjust that in Tools > Fact Types > Birth > Edit > Roles > Edit > Advanced > Override Template for Facts tab Listing by using context data refs to refer to Principal, but don't have time to investigate just now.

[LornaCraig]

I think there are two issues here. First, why are there not two entries in the Facts tab, one for Birth of son Dick and the other for the witness role, as informant. For some reason it seems that if a parent is recorded as a witness for a child's birth then only the witness fact is displayed in the parent's Facts tab, even if the Timeline Facts are set to display births of children. The 'Birth of ...' Fact does not appear. However if you switch to the other parent, if they were not recorded as a witness, the 'Birth of...' fact is listed. Is this a bug or is it done deliberately to avoid duplication of facts displayed?

To change the wording of the witness role entry in the Facts tab, Use Tools > Fact Types and select Birth from the list, then click Edit.

In the Fact Definition dialog click the Roles button to the right of the list of witness roles.
Select the Informant role and click Edit.
In the field labelled Past Tense enter ‘Informant at’.

You can also improve the witness role sentence template slightly, by changing it to something like
{individual} was the informant who registered the birth of {principal} {date} {place}

Then click OK.

[PeterR]

Is it not the case that there are two separate Events, each of which has its own date and place: firstly the birth, and secondly the registration of the birth, which may well occur days or weeks later, and often in a different Place, and pretty certainly with a different Address. Generally it is only a Marriage event where the registration coincides with the event itself.

[LornaCraig]

Yes, I agree. I think this demonstrates the limitations of using witness roles for informants who register births and deaths, as the action involved in theses roles occurs at a different time and place.

A sentence template like
{individual} was the informant who registered the birth of {principal} {date} {place}
is ambiguous as to whether the date and place are those of the birth event or the registration event.

Personally I think it is better just to put the name of the informant, and perhaps the date of the registration, in a the note field for the birth fact.

[AdrianBruce]

... Generally it is only a Marriage event where the registration coincides with the event itself.

And that's so in England & Wales but not in Scotland where registration is after the event.

[R_Hewitt]

Thank you for all the considered replies folks.

I don't feel sufficiently competent with FH to start editing the Fact Types template as per Mike's suggestion. I did take a look but I've too much experience of the Law of Unintended Consequences to muck about with it too much until I can devote much more time to my researches.

I think I'll need to treat the Birth and Witness/Registration events as two separate events, as per Lorna and Peter's comments, and trawl back through my trees in FH to make some re-entries. I think the same issue occurs with 'Death' events.

Again, many thanks for your suggestions and comments. As always, they are much appreciated.

Robert Hewitt

[tatewise]

What this thread does explore is how FH displays a Fact and associated Narrative Sentence when the Individual is involved in various ways.
In precedence order, as I see it, the Individual can be:

1. Principal directly experiencing the Fact.
2. Timeline close Relative of the Principal.
3. Witness in Role associated with the Fact.
4. Witness in second Role with same Fact.

How should FH present those involvements when more than one applies?
Should only the highest precedence be listed in the Facts tab of the Property Box or should all of them be listed?
If they are not all listed, then does that impact the ability to customise the Narrative Sentence?
I am still investigating the scenarios.

The example in this thread involves 2. & 3. above (Witness to Birth of son), but if they had two Roles in the same Event that would involve 2., 3. & 4. and if someone had Roles in their own Event then that would involve 1. & 3. and possibly 4.

[tatewise]

I have tried to repeat the symptoms of only displaying Birth when also an Informant Witness of own sons Birth but I get the display Informed Birth of ... unless the Witness Override Template has been set to just Birth.

Can you please post that Informant Role templates settings.

[R_Hewitt]

I'll happily do so if you tell me how to do it.

And, for clarity's sake, I've altered none of the defaults of FH 6.1, and the Birth entries (and Death) are created using Ancestral Sources.

[tatewise]

Rob, a little housekeeping first.
Please click the User Control Panel link at top of this FHUG web page, and on its Profile tab enter Family Historian Version 6.1 so it appears to the right of your postings.

I presume you just selected the option in AS on the Birth tab Registration tab for Birth registered by Father.

The default is to use the FH Birth Witness Role of Informant for the Father.
But what is not made clear is that you must create a definition for that Witness Role in FH otherwise you get the effect you have reported.

So in FH use Tools > Fact Types select Birth and click Edit.
In the Fact Definition dialogue you will see three default Witness Roles of Father, Mother, Parent but not Informant.
So click Roles and then Add to open New Role dialogue.
Enter Role Name: as Informant
Enter Past Tense: as Informed
In Witness Sentence Template: change a to an so it will read "... an Informant ...".
Finally click the Create button, then Close, OK, Close.

That should cure the basic problem on the Facts tab.

If you need to adjust the wording of the Facts tab or the Narrative Sentence then revisit the Tools > Fact Types and Edit the Informant Role details. Ask here for advice if necessary.

[R_Hewitt]

Mike, thank you very much.
It is all so much clearer now and the 'Facts' tab looks much more balanced and informative.

It is very kind of you to have taken the trouble you have to help me, I'm truly grateful.

Oh, and I've done the bit of Housekeeping you asked me to do - it's the least I could do.

Many Thanks,
Robert Hewitt

[R_Hewitt]

For completions sake......

I further added "Birth of {=Sex(%CUR_PRIN%,"son","daughter","child")} {%CUR_PRIN.NAME:GIVEN%}. {role name} at {label} of {principal} {date}" in to the Fact Definition > Roles > Informant > Edit > Advanced field, which gave me a 'Fact' sentence more in keeping with the other entries.

See screenshot.

Although, going forward, I think I will still keep the Birth/Death and Registration as separate events as discussed earlier.

Once again, thanks to all of you for your assistance and suggestions.

Robert Hewitt

[R_Hewitt]

And, just for extra completeness...

Working on the 'Death' side of things, it was a little more complex to show relationships because the individual might have informed/registered the death of a parent, grandparent, child, or other relation.
The 'Fact' tab in properties initially just showed "Death", with no names or relationship information.

Creating the 'Informant' role for a Death Fact and then Adding Death of {=Relationship(FileRoot(),GetRecord(%FACT%))} {principal}. {role name} at {label} in the 'Template, Advanced Features' field gave a more useful entry. See screenshot.

Robert Hewitt

[tatewise]

That is excellent Robert. You clearly show an in depth understanding of FH features.
It was simply the lack of an Informant Witness Role that initially snookered you.

[R_Hewitt]

".....You clearly show an in depth understanding of FH features"

Not really.
But I'm a dab hand at pinching and adapting other people's ideas

Robert Hewitt

[SteveMansell]

Surely the birth of a child and the registration of the birth are different events that happen on different dates. I've created a Birth Registration custom event with an Informant witness role. That seems to work well. I've done the same with death and I suppose I'll do the same if I need to record the registration of a Scottish marriage.

[SteveMansell]

On a related topic, I'm trying to handle a will where a single person is both the executor and a beneficiary. I can create two witness roles for that person but only one of the roles shows up in their timeline - Beneficiary. Is this a limitation of FH or am I missing something?

[tatewise]

That is a limitation of FH in its default configuration and is described using the example of Executor and Beneficiary in the Help page for Witnesses Dialogue under The Property Box. That page also offers two workarounds.

[SteveMansell]

Thanks, Mike. When all else fails, read the flipping manual!