* New Pre-release: 6.1.2 - Show Media

[NickiP]

Lorna as I said in my response to Nick's post, the one previous to yours, I also use on occasions Source Show Media to view these. I just don't think Mike's suggestion of completely designing the Facts Show Media is the solution and do feel its a knee jerk reaction to the changes that have been made to the Show Source Media window without perhaps really thinking about how it would, and it would from what I can see of what Mike has written (even if he disagrees), affect other existing FH users.

Perhaps I'm being a little harsh on AS users, but as someone who creates all their Source Records directly in FH, as well as using the Facts Media option in addition to Source Media, it did feel a little like we weren't being taken into consideration, whether intentionally or not.

I agree Calico Pie are in a difficult situation and obviously are trying to find a way to accommodate both established FH users, of which I am one, and new FTM users. Unfortunately, its obvious the new changes aren't popular with some established FH users, but I don't think Mike's suggestion is the solution not least because its not really going to explain to FTM users the differences between Source Records and Citations. However, with an easier facility to add media to Source Citations, I can actually see the possiblity of using this method with some of my Sources but that's down to the way I work. Calico Pie would really need to find a way of allowing those using the old style Source Show Media a quicker way to undertake this than the changes they've currently made.

[NickiP]

The Fact Media window shows Facts media and allows via tick box both Source media and/or Citation media to show. The Add button relates to Facts media only, just as the Citation media window in its current form only allows to Add Citation media. Don't see the need for the Add button on Facts Media window to be expanded for the other two. It would be more logical for the Citation Add media window to be expanded to allow you to Add Source media.

Thanks for the explanation. I've never used this window before as I never add media to facts. Now I understand.

Bill

Its actually how I started using the Link Media option in FTM2012 prior to moving to FH. I had previously used FTM up to v2006 and that didn't provide the option, it was something I liked about the new versions of FTM. So I just continued using it when I moved to FH. The FTM users with Media attached to Source Citations are probably predominantly those who use the TreeSync option from Ancestry, something I wasn't doing at that time and don't currently use for my main research.

Realistically nobody really knows how many FH users are linking/adding Media to Facts and how many to Sources, its not really possible as obviously not all users are members of FHUG. Another reason why there is a need for all methods to be kept as simple as possible so as not to inconvenience any FH users.

[BillH]

I wonder if a better solution is to have just one Show Media button on the Facts tab as before, and leave the yellow Source (Citations) pane toolbar as it was before.

Mike,
I like the idea of the yellow Source (Citations) pane toolbar having a Show Media button. This makes it much easier to see the media for Sources than it is today. It also allows you to see both Source and Citation media at the same time which would probably be better for those who do link media to citations. I just think that the window that pops up is a bit confusing now. I would not want this new feature to go away.

Bill

[tatewise]

NickiP said: Sorry Mike but with the section on a two pane window, you appear to be suggesting that the Facts Show Media would work like the previous Source Show Media window. This would mean that in addition to media directly linked to the Fact, it would also show all the time Source and Citation media relating to the Fact.

No, as I said, I am suggesting it is like the Indivividual - Media tab, with a Type column borrowed from the Notes tab. My thinking was to reduce the number of different windows styles for managing Media as FH has too many different windows for perfoming similar tasks.

I only mentioned Source record Media as a parting suggestion. Essentially the Fact Media window would only show Media linked to the Fact (INDI.FACT.OBJE) and Media linked to its Citation(s) (INDI.FACT.SOUR.OBJE). There would usually only be a handful of them.

FTM users would rarely be creating new Source records, because they use Method 2. Most often they would start on the Facts tab, use Add Fact, use Add Citation, and use Show Media to add Media to Citation. All buttons directly available in Facts tab.

It would be feasible to include the same button in the Citation toolbar, but I thought it unecessary. What I was trying to avoid was the various tick options, and the confusion about which Media image was liked to what (Fact, Citation, or Source), and the confusion about what the Add Media button added to (Fact or Citation) via the two similar but different windows.

[NickiP]

Limiting the Add Media in the Facts Tab to only Facts Media or Citation Media is all very well, but means those who add Source Media manually would still have to go to the Source Record after the Source is created to add media. The Add Source Record though the Facts Tab doesn't provide the option to link media at that stage, as it provides limited functionality when compared to Add > Source (something you have mentioned yourself previously on another thread).

Similarly, stating that FTM users only use Method 2 and so don't really need the functionality limits their choice of possibly changing their method within FH when they get used to the software. It also limits options for those of us who use Method 1 but create the records manually.

As I've said previously on this thread, there really needs to be the optional tick box (as there is with the current updated version of the Facts Show Media) to restrict showing Citation Media through the Facts Show Media view. I can see opportunities when using Citation Media in addition to Facts Media may be useful but I wouldn't want to see if through the Facts Tab as that would be confusing. I may be an exception to the rule but, as with expanding the functionality to take into account FTM users, there should be a desire not to reduce the considerable customisation options for other experienced FH users who do use both Facts and Source/Citation Media for each Fact and create the records manually.

To be honest whichever way is developed, there is always going to be some confusion and a steep learning curve for people used to other products. As someone who predominantly used FTM2006, which doesn't allow for media linking, and to a lesser extent FTM2012 prior to moving to FH, it definitely was for me and I have adapted the way I have worked over time. The current changes for FTM users are helpful in allowing them to see the potential of FH as a new software product, but rather than completely redesigning the way some windows work, whether you think there are too many ways for doing certain things or not, is perhaps not the best way forward in trying to mitigate some of the most recent changes in relation to how some experienced FH users work.

[NickiP]

Perhaps another way to improve the Add Source/Citation and their Media would be to have a Source Tab in the Focus Window, as with the Main, Facts, Notes, Media and All. The yellow Show Sources button on the toolbar could then become an Add Source/Citation to create them from the Facts Tab, something it currently does, but the new Sources Tab would allow you to edit Sources or Source Citations and add/remove Media. If it also had a Show Media button that could be used individually for each Source and which functioned the way the Show Source Media previously worked, it would remedy the issue that 6.1.2 has caused for some FH users. Yes it involves clicking on another Tab but would provide the added functionality in one place that is currently missing.

Then leave the Facts Show Media with the option to show Source and Citation Media in that view, but not to add/remove the media, it removes the need to expand the Facts Show Media that Mike is suggesting. It would also provide anyone looking at Facts who just uses Source Media or Citation Media with a quick and easy way of seeing which Facts have media attached to them.

Adding The only thing that would need to be worked out with a separate Sources Tab was some form of column label from the Facts Tab relating to each of the Sources so you knew which related to which but I would imagine something like that would be feasible.

[LornaCraig]

Mike,
I understand your reasoning (I think) and in theory it looks good. But I am still concerned that the arrangement you suggest will lead inexperienced users to add Media to a citation when they think they are adding it to a Source, or they will not realise there is a distinction. That is why I still think it would be better to have two buttons in the yellow Source pane, one for adding/viewing Source media and the other for adding/viewing Citation media. This would mean the user has to make a clear choice about which they want to do. Meanwhile the Add Media button in the Fact Media window would only add Media direct to the fact.

[NickWalker]

Perhaps another way to improve the Add Source/Citation and their Media would be to have a Source Tab in the Focus Window, as with the Main, Facts, Notes, Media and All. The yellow Show Sources button on the toolbar could then become an Add Source/Citation to create them from the Facts Tab, something it currently does, but the new Sources Tab would allow you to edit Sources or Source Citations and add/remove Media. If it also had a Show Media button that could be used individually for each Source and which functioned the way the Show Source Media previously worked, it would remedy the issue that 6.1.2 has caused for some FH users.

If I'm looking at (for example), a census fact I just want to be able to view the image of that census page with a click of one button like I can on a PC without this new update installed. I don't want to have to click a different tab (thus losing my view of the fact) and look down a list of sources, click on the source and then click a button! I'd be happy to have the source tab as you suggest, but it doesn't solve the problem for me. Calico just need to put the 'show source media' button back as it was before, in addition to the new 'show citation media' button.

[tatewise]

Something has been overlooked in the foregoing discussions about procedures for managing Citations, Sources, etc. The new Fact/Citation Media window is a modeless dialogue that stays open throughout those other activities. So regardless of how you add Citations or new Sources that window is available to show and add Media.

@NickiP:
I didn't intend to imply that FTM migrants would only ever use Method 2. Initially they mostly would, but later might embrace Method 1, though by then they would have become FH users.

May be to satisfy different users, there does need to be tick options to enable/disable Fact Media or Citation Media or Source Media, but lets try and have one modeless window to suit all purposes.

I don't see how what I proposed takes away anything from what current users work with.

If I undestand correctly, the proposed Sources tab would be on the Property Box (alongside Main, Facts, Notes, Media) not the Focus Window. Remember the Property Box can float and popup in isolation from the Diagram Window and Records Window, etc. The task of identifying which Fact each Source Citation belonged to, and the length of the list would be unwieldy. Where would things like the Add Citation button go? It still does not solve what to put in the Show Media window.

@Lorna:
Inexperienced users are always difficult to cope with. Many seem not to understand Source Citations at all, and add all Media to the Individual Media tab. I am not convinced that three buttons more or less side by side help an inexperienced user any more than a drop-list saying Fact Media, Citation Media & Source Media.

My thinking behind putting the button on the Facts tab was to draw attention to both the Fact Media and Citation Media are linked closely to the Fact and not in a separate Source record. It will soon become clear to users who create multiple Citations for the same Source that the Media only appears on one Citation and they must keep adding Media to each new Citation, whereas when Media is added to the Source it appears against all Citations. A similar argument applies to the Citation v Source variants of Text From Source. Unless of couse they use Copy & Paste Citation.

However, there are some who want the modeless Media window to show all three types of Media, which dilutes my propsed distinction.

[NickiP]

If I'm looking at (for example), a census fact I just want to be able to view the image of that census page with a click of one button like I can on a PC without this new update installed. I don't want to have to click a different tab (thus losing my view of the fact) and look down a list of sources, click on the source and then click a button! I'd be happy to have the source tab as you suggest, but it doesn't solve the problem for me. Calico just need to put the 'show source media' button back as it was before, in addition to the new 'show citation media' button.

Nick the suggestion was simply to counter Mike's suggestion to radically redesign the Facts Show Media window which I do not feel would improve things.

The problem is that the new Show Citation Media has better functionality for adding media than the previous Source "Show Media" button had. I appreciate that providing the two buttons as you suggest would give you back the functionality you require and those wishing to attach media to Citations would also have the functionality. The problem is that leaves those of us who manually add media to Source Records having to use the roundabout way of adding and editing media attached to Source Records. Calico Pie have obviously felt that changing Citation Show Media to work the same way as the Facts Show Media was the way forward. Perhaps replacing the "Go to Source Record" button with the previous "Show Media" button functionality, but called "Show Source Media Record" (as that is the record that is opened" would be the way forward. And then for them to expand the Citation Show Media so that it is possible to add media to Source Records as well as Citation Records. That way we'd all get the best of both worlds.

The question would be how many people use the "Go to Source Record" button? Personally, because it always leaves the yellow Citation floating box open (never closes it) with a message saying "Not Applicable", I never use it. I find it easier to go to the Source Records list and find the record I want to look at.

Sorry Mike but I agree with Lorna and really do not think that merging Source/Citation media options in the Facts Media window is the way forward, I feel it would make it more confusing not less.

[DarrylGale]

There's been some interesting discussion here re sources/citations and media and there's no single answer to suit everyone. As a long time FTM user and happy with the release of 6.1.2 I do acknowledge that more needs to be done so let me explain how FTM works as I'm on the other side of the fence and my comments can be incorporated within this discussion to get a "best" fit for everyone.
I belong to a large genealogy group in Australia so I'll base the following on their training procedures obtained from the December 2015 newsletter. They teach 2 methods i.e. use your own source name or the Elizabeth Shown Mills method because FTM has included 170 of her source templates into the program. They explain the importance of a good source title such as "State of Victoria Birth Certificate" rather than "Australian Birth Certificate." Once the source template is completed the citation is created for the individuals birth certificate and data from the certificate is entered there. Media is then added to the citation. Good genealogy rules is never add media directly to a fact as the media is a source therefore a source should always be created as the source/citation contains vital information and can then be linked to many individuals. (To correct NickiP..."The FTM users with Media attached to Source Citations are probably predominantly those who use the TreeSync option from Ancestry." A media item is attached to the citation as per the FTM Help guide and video tutorials - using Ancestry or TreeSyc has nothing to do with it).
FTM uses citations that contains the source data and the image therefore the importance of 6.1.2 is allowing FTM users to continue the same process and at the same time give them the option to change methods if they so desire (as per Mike's comment above). It's the best of both worlds however as a FTM user I recommend the following should be considered by Calico Pie:
- the usual practice in genealogy programs is to create a source and then the citation however in FH it's the other way around. On a previous thread I made the comment..."when you select the "Add Citation" link you're adding or creating a source that links with the citation and that button confused me the first time that I used it as I was expecting to actually add a citation, which I didn't, but I did in FH"... Unless there are clear instructions this will still confuse new FTM users that have migrated to FH.
- more emphasis is needed on adding an image to a source or a citation. Have 2 buttons? A drop down list? Something needs to be there!
- from my previous post 2 days ago where I commented:
(1) In the Sources tab on the "Pics etc" column it shows the number of source pictures but not the number of citation pictures (it's linked to the individual). If a picture is attached to a citation it's part of the source so it should be shown - perhaps a new column heading is required such as "Citation media." This is a critical analysis tool in FTM as sources/citations/media require a quick reference check.
(2) If a media button was added to the citation window then I recommend a citation enhancement for the "Where within Source" pane and the "Text from Source" pane where both panes be "visually" increased and the "Note" pane be "visually" decreased to say one or two lines only - that would then be similar to what FTM offers." This is the second part of the 6.1.2 fix as you need to see the full citation information (FTM) which is the same as you need to see the full source information (FH). A button can be added to each of the lines and clicked on to open a new window pane to see any hidden data if required.
- the yellow pane is very confusing for FTM users and perhaps for a number of FH users. It should say in big letters somewhere "Citation" as that is what it is - it's a citation with a link at the top to a drop down list of sources.
- the "Add Citation" link on the yellow pane should be changed to "Add Source" link as that is what you're doing.
- it's impossible to satisfy everyone on my comments above so perhaps there needs to be a redesign of this source template and maybe a new singular source tab on the main tool bar i.e. you select "source" from the main tool bar and you're presented with an option to use a source (method 1) or a citation (method 2). FTM has perfected the look and feel of sources/citations as well as easy data entry. To understand my comments above with a new singular source tab follow this link and select sources to view a short online tutorial:
http://www.familytreemaker.com/Learn/Tutorials
- then follow this link as it has a screenshot of the FTM Sources window which is neatly packaged together. Scroll down to the user "mmurosky" posted 17 December 2015 - 3.29pm (this is a RootsMagic forum where FTM sources/citations are an issue there as well):
http://forums.rootsmagic.com/index.php? ... nts/page-2
- these 2 links of FTM for sources/citations/media will give an understanding of how FTM handles sources/citations in a singular tab and it should give you a better comparison to how FH does it and perhaps a combination of both may be the answer.
- I'm surprised that FH doesn't have more singular tabs on the main tool bar as it means everything is in easy reach for the user with the extra screen size to accommodate everyone's wishes. FTM has the following tabs: Plan, People, Places, Media, Sources, Publish & Web Search - a simple clean design that works.
- I haven't discussed FH media here re sources/citations as I'll leave that for another day however the discussion with media has jumped past a conclusive discussion on the source/citation tabs as until this discussion is exhausted there is too much speculation on what may occur later with media.

[NickiP]

Sorry Darren but while FTM may recommend that Source Citations are used to link to Media, they do provide the facility to create a Source Record without any citations, add Media directly to the Source Record and then link Individual Facts to that Source. The same way that FH Source Records behave. I've just succesfully created this in FTM 2014. I would suggest that the Tutorials on http://www.familytreemaker.com have been created keeping in mind the way that TreeSync works with Ancestry trees. Therefore it isn't really surprising that they have created Tutorials that reflect this way of working to enable the same style of sourcing to contine to reflect the way Ancestry's trees create and use source records Pre ancestry versions of FTM also allowed you to create Source Records without Citations and link them to other Facts, they just didn't provide the facility to link media to either Facts or Sources. Ancestry redesigned the software when they purchased it but left the same option for Source Records in place even though their Tree facility on the website was using Source Citations only.

Just because FTM and some groups of researchers feel that the FTM way is best practice, doesn't necessarily mean that is actually the case. In the case of Sourcing, as you will no doubt have seen on FHUG itself, some FH users feel Method1 rather than Method2 is best practice for Sourcing and there has often been debates about this. FH has obviously provided different methods for some time because it has deemed them appropriate. I have always found anyway that the ancestry redesigned FTM was rather restrictive on how it allowed people to use the software, something FH doesn't do. Similarly, you may say that linking media to Facts isn't a good idea, but the option is available and has been for some time in FH, and personally I use it as a way of ensuring I know what digitial media I have relating to a specific Fact. The fact I also attach an extract of the media file to the Source Record for sourcing purposes is something that FH allows and which I can then use to make use of the facility in the Narrative Reports Source Sections to show media files. The fact that neither FTM nor RM provide this facility doesn't mean its not a "good practice". The benefits of FH are the customisation options and allowing people to work how they want. This is something that neither FTM nor RM are that good at. I know because I've used both programs in the past.

I have tended to get the impression that many FTM users would be far happier if FH, or whichever software they decided to migrate to, was redesigned to look and behave just like FTM. FH isn't FTM and while Calico Pie are obviously trying to accommodate some of the ways FTM works into their software, changing it to behave more like FTM isn't really very fair on all established FH users. I doubt very much that Roots Magic is likely to do completely redesign itself either to look exactly like FTM, they have made changes to try and accommodate the way FTM behaves too.

As someone who migrated to FH from FTM three years ago, I wouldn't have expected FH to look and work just the same as FTM and was well aware I would need to learn the software and how it works to get the best out of it. I also realised I would probably have to edit some things in my tree so they worked better with the new software. To be honest the fact that FH doesn't look or work like FTM was the attraction. So far Calico Pie have been endeavouring to accommodate the way FTM works with Sources Citations and Media and the most recent update does appear to have done this. While we all can make suggestions on how to accommodate the different ways of working, it is very much down to Calico Pie as to how they wish to alter their software to accommodate these.

[tatewise]

I have started a new thread for this discussion so that the other comments on V6.1.2 are not swamped.

It appears some misunderstandings have crept into the discussion that I think need clarifying, but if wrong I am happy to be shot down in flames.

(A) Old Show Media button in Souces For pane.
This never was, and cannot become, a Go To Media Record button.
Which Media record would it go to?
A Source record can have many Media linked to its Media tab, not just one.
Via its All tab Local Media Objects can be added with no Media records at all.
What the button did was show all that Source record's Media in the Media Window.

(B) Old v. new Show Media button in Souces For pane.
I realise they behave quite differently, but the essential function of showing the Media attached to a Source record (and for new button the Citation too) is fulfilled.

(C) Two Show Media buttons in Facts tab and Sources For pane.
It is no accident both buttons have the same name (rather than say Show Fact Media and Show Citation Media).
Both buttons open the same modeless 'schizophrenic' window floating in front of Focus Window.
Once it is open, click on any Fact in any Property Box tab (Main, Facts, All) for any Individual and it becomes a Fact Media window and the Add button adds Fact Media.
Click on any Citation in any Sources For pane and it becomes a Citation Media window and the Add button adds Citation Media (and the tick boxes change).

(D) Third Show Media button for Source Media.
In the context of the current modeless window this cannot behave consistently.
Initially it could show various Media and the Add button could add Source Media, but once you click on a Fact or Citation as in (C) above, how do you set it back to being a Source Media window? There is no Source record to click on. This concept needs more explanation to describe its behaviour.

[tatewise]

DarylGale said: the usual practice in genealogy programs is to create a source and then the citation however in FH it's the other way around.

Sorry Daryl, but FH allows users to create Source records first and then add Citations to Facts. That is the way the Automatic Source Citations feature is designed to work.

[AdrianBruce]

... They explain the importance of a good source title such as "State of Victoria Birth Certificate" rather than "Australian Birth Certificate." Once the source template is completed the citation is created for the individuals birth certificate and data from the certificate is entered there. ...

Probably important to realise that this is equivalent to what is described in FHUG as Method2, where all the individual detail is in the citation.

Simply carrying over that method into FH without thinking about the consequences is not a good idea. Due to the structure of the GEDCOM data model, FH will have a number of copies of the citation - leading to a lot of work if you ever need to update that citation. FTM will, I was told in another thread, only keep one copy of the citation, which is wholly admirable in a system that has the ability to do that. FH, as I said, has to work within the GEDCOM data model and therefore duplicates the text etc of citations. If you think about this and decide to carry on that way, fine, but please don't miss the thinking stage. (You can find lots of discussions about Method1 & Method2 elsewhere in FHUG and, as has been said, most of us use a mix - I only have one source-record for Wikipedia or one source-record for the CheshireBMD online index, which is Method2 style.)

... - the usual practice in genealogy programs is to create a source and then the citation however in FH it's the other way around. ...

I am curious why you say this, because I am absolutely adamant that I create the Source-Record first and then the Citation. I use menu Add/Source... to create the source-record. Then, in that big yellow Automatic Source Citations pane over the Record window, I use Find Source Record to locate the Source Record I just created and fill in the rest of the Citation detail before clicking "Enable Automatic Source Citations". Only then do I add any facts.

What may confuse is that the big yellow Automatic Source Citations pane over the Record window has the ability to start the creation of Source-Records (e.g. via finding and cloning) - this only came in in v6 and I disliked it then!

This following quote refers, I think, to the yellow source pane at the side of an individual

... - the yellow pane is very confusing for FTM users and perhaps for a number of FH users. It should say in big letters somewhere "Citation" as that is what it is - it's a citation with a link at the top to a drop down list of sources. ...

I'll definitely agree with that.

[LornaCraig]

Darryl said:

the usual practice in genealogy programs is to create a source and then the citation however in FH it's the other way around.

No, it is not the other way round in FH. Even if you create a new Source record via the Add Citation > New route, what you are actually doing is creating the Source record and then automatically linking it to a fact via a citation. (I agree that in the Source pane where it currently says Add Citation it ought to say Add Source: that is a long-standing anomaly.) Personally I normally create a Source Record separately first and then cite it against all facts it relates to, and there may be several, either using automatic Source citation or copying and pasting into the Source pane for successive facts.

Darryl said:

the yellow pane is very confusing for FTM users and perhaps for a number of FH users. It should say in big letters somewhere "Citation" as that is what it is - it's a citation with a link at the top to a drop down list of sources.

No, it’s not one citation with a link to a list of sources. It is a list of Sources, each of which can be selected in turn and the pane will then show the corresponding citation details for each. The citation details will be different for each source.

Darryl said:

Good genealogy rules is never add media directly to a fact as the media is a source therefore a source should always be created as the source/citation contains vital information and can then be linked to many individuals

Two comments:
Firstly, you might quite reasonably want to add, for example, a photo of someone’s graduation to a graduation event, or a photo of any other event where the photo itself is just an illustration rather than a source. (In this example the Source might be the degree certificate).
Secondly, in the cases where, as you say, ‘the media is the source’ it is an image of part or all of the source itself. It is not an image of the citation, because a citation is not a ‘thing’ that you can have an image of. So I don’t agree at all with the FTM logic.

Mike said:

(D) Third Show Media button for Source Media.
In the context of the current modeless window this cannot behave consistently.

Agreed. That is why I think there would have to be two buttons in the Source pane, one for source media and the other for citation media, and they would have to behave differently, unfortunately.

There is no easy solution to this, but I am still very resistant to the idea of being able to add citation media by clicking on a fact, because it will draw people towards adding media to a citation rather than the source, without thinking or realising they are doing so.

NickiP said:

I have tended to get the impression that many FTM users would be far happier if FH, or whichever software they decided to migrate to, was redesigned to look and behave just like FTM. FH isn't FTM and while Calico Pie are obviously trying to accommodate some of the ways FTM works into their software, changing it to behave more like FTM isn't really very fair on all established FH users.

Yes, this is what I have been thinking too. I fully understand the frustration of FTM users who want to be able to continue to use their data in its existing format. I also understand why Calico Pie are keen to accommodate them (it is, after all, a potentially huge market). But when Calico designed their software they did so in what they considered to be the most rational way, while building in as much flexibility as possible. That flexibility ought to be enough to accommodate the FTM way of handing sources and citations without presenting existing users with so many extra options that they can’t see the wood for the trees.

 

[NickWalker]

(A) Old Show Media button in Souces For pane.
This never was, and cannot become, a Go To Media Record button.
Which Media record would it go to?
A Source record can have many Media linked to its Media tab, not just one.
Via its All tab Local Media Objects can be added with no Media records at all.
What the button did was show all that Source record's Media in the Media Window.

(B) Old v. new Show Media button in Souces For pane.
I realise they behave quite differently, but the essential function of showing the Media attached to a Source record (and for new button the Citation too) is fulfilled

No this isn't the case. The new button just shoes a small thumbnail of the source media and I have to click 4 more times to actually be able to view the image and read the writing on it. In comparison, if I click on the old button I immediately get an image I can read - a small proportion of sources will have multiple images but then I can view any of these with just one click. So that's several more clicks to achieve the same thing. How can you not see that this is a retrograde step?

Nick

[capnkeith]

Please don't forget the basic premise of FH, which I am sure I have read somewhere. To work for those who only want the basics just as well as for the power users.

With that in mind, what is wrong with only having three buttons in the "Sources for" panel of the "Individual Property Box"?

1. "Show Media" button that would continue as it did before 6.1.2 and go direct to the "Media Window" where it is then possible to view all media attached to that source.

2. "Go To Source Record" button which would continue the same.

3. A new button with a gear wheel which when clicked would display a menu with edit features such as Add Source, Add Citation, Copy & Paste, Delete etc. All of which could be achieved with only one extra click than is now required.

[tatewise]

Lorna said: I am still very resistant to the idea of being able to add citation media by clicking on a fact.

Strictly speaking clicking on a Fact does not add any Media, anymore than clicking on a Fact adds a Citation. You must use further Add... buttons to perform those actions.

Maybe there should be a Tools > Preferences setting to determine which Show Media window modes are presented.?

Essentially, it would be a choice of Source Media or Citation Media or Both. This would be most easily implemented with my Show Media window design, where for Source Media the Citation Media mode would be hidden, for Citation Media the Source Media mode would be hidden, but for Both they would both be shown and intended for experienced users. Fact Media mode would always be shown, unless someone has a good reason to hide that mode too.

FTM migrants would be advised to select Citation Media mode initially until they became experienced.

[tatewise]

capnkeith said: edit features such as Add Source, Add Citation, Copy & Paste, Delete, etc.

Sorry Keith, but you need to explain in more details what your proposed buttons would do.

What is the difference between Add Source and Add Citation?

Where is the Show Citation Media button, or does your 1. Show Media button include Citation Media?

[capnkeith]

I will leave "What is the difference between Add Source and Add Citation?" to those discussing it. It seemed as though what they wanted was both options. That was why I put "such as" it can include what ever is felt necessary.

The "Show Media" would, as I said, do what it has been doing prior to 6.1.2 which, I assume, is to display any media attached to the highlighted item in the Source window.

My thought was to keep it simple when just viewing what information you already have but then also have the option at hand to add new information when required.

[tatewise]

No, the discussion is NOT about Add Source and Add Citation but about showing/adding Media for existing Source records and Citation items. My confusion is that there already is an Add Citation button, which some have suggested should be relabelled Add Source but that is another story.

[capnkeith]

I used the words "such as" the menu items can be whatever is required. I was simply being diplomatic. You could use "Add Citation" to copy / cite the source to another fact. You could equally want to use "Add Source" to add another source to that fact.

All I am trying to do is offer a simpler alternative to the suggestions put forward.

NickWalker is right, it is retrograde step to need 5 Mouse clicks to get to an image. Also in the pre 6.2.1 option with one more click you could see any other image attached to that source. In my opinion to add further buttons just complicates it further.

[tatewise]

From one perspective, v6.1.2 actually reduces the number of clicks needed to show the Media linked to a Source. (I'm playing devil's advocate.)

Scenario - In the Sources For pane, select any Source in the list, then click the new Show Media button (either in Sources For or in Facts tab). That shows not only all Media linked to the Source record, but also Media linked to the Citation, and maybe Media linked to the Fact, depending on which button was clicked, and what tick options are chosen.

In know the Media are shown in a different context (not in the Media Window), but nevertheless they are shown, which is often all that is wanted.

That took the same two clicks as pre-v6.1.2: one to select Source and one to show Media. If it happens to be the top Source you want, then it is only one click in both cases, not five.

But in pre-v6.1.2 you must then click to return to Focus Window and repeat the two clicks to show Media for another Source. Whereas, with v6.1.2 you just click another Source, which is less clicks than before. The more Source Media you want to show the more clicks you save, because the new Media window stays open above the Property Box.

It works much the same if you start from a Diagram Window and open any Property Box from there.

[NickWalker]

I know the Media are shown in a different context (not in the Media Window), but nevertheless they are shown, which is often all that is wanted

Not really. There's not much point in seeing a tiny little image of a source document - census pages or certificates look the same at that scale. If you're clicking to view source media you want to actually be able to read it.