* Automatic Source Citations do not auto populate

[PeterWieland]

In V5 if you highlighted a source in the source list then selected Automatic Source Citation the Source Title field was auto populated with the highlighted record.

In V6 this doesn't seem to happen. Is there somewhere to set this behaviour?

Only a minor thing, but it is something I had come to rely.

[mjashby]

Peter,

The selection of automatic source citations has changed in FH6; and offers more controllable and convenient editing options (in my experience). Just select Automatic Source Citations from the Toolbar icon (the yellow icon on the right); then select your Source from the drop down list and press the 'Set Automatic Source Citations' Button on the left-hand side of the 'control panel. The various boxes allow you to edit individual entries as you work.

Mervyn

[AdrianBruce]

Some concern from this v5 user. If I've just entered a source in v5 and request auto citation, then the source is automatically pre-selected. Are we saying that in v6 I will need to select the source again? in a drop down list containing all the source records? Because drop down lists are much harder to work with than the record window because they are obviously smaller and their sort order is seldom obvious.

[johnmorrisoniom]

Don't forget that in 4,5,or 6 you can copy and paste into the Auto citation and amend as required.

[AdrianBruce]

Don't forget that in 4,5,or 6 you can copy and paste into the Auto citation and amend as required.

Indeed but you still have to get something to copy in the first place.... The issue is selecting the source record - right now, in v5, it's dead easy. Select the source record I've just entered and you're there.

[LornaCraig]

Adrian, V6 requires a slightly different way of working but is not as cumbersome as you think. These are extracts from the Help file:

Select a source record by typing a partial name filter, and selecting from the dropdown list of matching Source records. Alternatively type the name of a new Source record and click the Create button to create it. The new Source record will be displayed in the Property Box. Whenever a Source record is selected, the Source record scroll icon will display on the left side of the box.

Any copied citation can be used to 'seed' the Automatic Source Citation Pane.

So (1) the drop down list is easier to use than you expect, as you can type a partial name filter and then select from a short list of matching records.

(2) if you are creating a new Source record you can do this via the Automatic Source Citation pane, so that it is pre-selected.

(3) if you have used an existing source record and entered some particular citation details which you want to re-use, you can copy the citation and click the tools icon in the Automatic Source Citation pane and Paste Citation into Pane.

[AdrianBruce]

Thanks Lorna. Generally the partial name filter will be cumbersome for me as I prefix the names with a record-type description, so I'll need to type all of (say) "Marriage certificate" before getting to the specifics. However, method 2 sounds pretty useful as it seems to simply reverse the create / auto-citation process to become auto-citation / create. I think.

Good job Peter started this thread as I suspect I'd never have bothered to read up that bit and would have got seriously surprised and disenchanted.

Adrian

[PeterR]

Unfortunately, the drop-down list shows only the Source Title rather than the Short Title which may be what is usually displayed in the Records window. Typing the first few letters of what is in fact only the Short Title will not work.

The good new is that the Automatic source citation pane has a menu (gear-wheel) which includes as its first item Find Source Record... which can filter on both Title and Short Title.

[LornaCraig]

the partial name filter will be cumbersome for me as I prefix the names with a record-type description, so I'll need to type all of (say) "Marriage certificate" before getting to the specifics.

That shouldn't be necessary. If you want to find a record called "Marriage certificate for Fred Bloggs and Jane Smith", just typing "Fred" will produce a short list of all records containing Fred in the title. Adding "Bloggs" will narrow down further to records containing "Fred Bloggs". And, as Peter says, there is a Find Source Record option which can filter on both Title and Short Title.

[PeterWieland]

To me this is a huge backward step. The way I have always worked when I receive a large amount of information from one source e.g. someone who has researched a branch of my tree and has passed the information on.

1. Set up a new source using the contact's name as a title.
2. Add any other information about that source like contact details, text from the source such as a letter or email etc.
3. With the new source selected, turn on auto citation and fill in the date etc. The name is auto completed.
4. Enter the data into my tree.

Having to search through well over 1000 source records when there is no sort option is almost like going back to paper archives.

So far I am not impressed with v6. Web record matching has been very disappointing. Many of the record matches have been the wrong ones I found when I first started 15 years ago, if it finds them at all. I have not found any new information whatsoever.

The map (which is the main reason I upgraded) is very hit and miss. I realise that much of that is due to poor address recording on my part and it has forced me to tidy it up, but it has not been as useful as I had expected.

Many of the improvements I had been hoping for haven't happened (e.g. customising the children box in the individual window to add the birth place field so I can enter an entire family without having to change record view).

There seems to be a worrying trend amongst software developers to constantly bring out new versions with loads of bells and whistles at the expense of basic functionality. FH isn't the only program I use where this has happened, there are a couple of other programs I use that have been totally destroyed by this constant push for 'improvement', so much so that I still keep an old PC running XP so I can use older versions of software.

I am seriously considering going back to v5.

[LornaCraig]

To me this is a huge backward step. The way I have always worked when I receive a large amount of information from one source e.g. someone who has researched a branch of my tree and has passed the information on.

1. Set up a new source using the contact's name as a title.
2. Add any other information about that source like contact details, text from the source such as a letter or email etc.
3. With the new source selected, turn on auto citation and fill in the date etc. The name is auto completed.
4. Enter the data into my tree.

This is still straightforward in V6:
1. Open the Automatic Source Citation pane before you create your new source.
2. Enter the Source name in the Soure Title field in the pane, and click the Create button on the left. The Property Box opens for the new Source.
3. Then enter the deatils of your new Source in the usual way. The Source is pre-selected and ready for auto citation.

Having to search through well over 1000 source records when there is no sort option is almost like going back to paper archives.

Have you used the new filters available in V6? Click the gear-wheel icon on the left in the Automatic Source citation pane and select the first option Find Source Record. Similar filters are available in the Records Window. Most users have found the new filters a great improvement as an aid to locating records.

[tatewise]

PeterWieland wrote:
The map (which is the main reason I upgraded) is very hit and miss.

Many users have found synchronising the V6 Place records with the Map Life Facts Plugin gives very good results. See plugins:help:map_life_facts:the_faq|> Map Life Facts ~ FAQ.

I think the new Record Filters are an improvement, but you need to get used to them for best results.

The new Internet Matches and Map Window are a bit gimmicky and yet to deliver their full potential.

[AdrianBruce]

OK - I've been trying it but it really is clunky now, for me.

Suppose I want to clone a baptismal source record for the next child in the family. I copy it and add the new source record as an adjusted version of the old. No change.

Previously, I then selected it, clicked on the tool for automatic citation, and there it was, ready for citing.

Now, if I select it and click on the tool for automatic citation - nothing... I have to find it again with the gear button / Find Source Record option, bring up a window looking remarkably like what I'm already looking at, hope it's in a useful sort order, and select the source - again.

Having read about drag and drop, I tried that - nope, dragging the source record to the yellow pane doesn't work. (I haven't yet got into dragging and dropping so don't understand how far it's been implemented).

Please don't ask me to enter filter data - why should I type some more letters when it's already selected in the source window below?

I tried enabling and entering source title first as suggested by Lorna, but that doesn't work for me - I clone existing records 99.9% of the time, it's the only way to get the data consistent.

Is there a Wish List item for this? If not I'll try to concoct one.

[tatewise]

That one is also easy with new Automatic Citations Tool.
I have not needed to use that copying of source technique, but only a few seconds of looking found the solution.

Open Automatic Citations pane, and in Source Title box select the original baptismal source.
If necessary, use the cog menu Find Source Record option with filters, etc, to find that source.
Then use the cog menu Clone Source Record option, and fill in the details in the cloned copy.
Now it is all set up for auto citations...

[AdrianBruce]

I agree it's do-able that way, Mike, but if I'm entering a series of baptisms, the source I want to clone is probably slap bang at the top of the Source Records pane (or bottom). Why should I need to select it again by using a drop-down list or going via that cog menu?

The issue is not that it can't be found, but that the way I work I'm finding it twice - once in the Source Records window, either because it's there already as (nearly) the last to be entered, or because I need to remind myself what it's called. And then I need to find it again.....

Surely given I have the big window, with filtering, I shouldn't need to use a small window that is pretty much identical in functionality except it's smaller and therefore harder to use and repeats the selection.

Fundamentally it seems we have a duplication of functionality between the source listing in the main records window and in the yellow pane above.

[tatewise]

If you have just created that first baptism Source for Auto Citation then you would have used the Create button on the left, as originally suggested by Lorna.

Therefore, that first baptism Source is already in the Source Title box, and you don't need to find it at all in order to use Clone Source Record.

So I would argue it is even quicker than before, not slower. But you need to embrace the concept.
Start from the Auto Citation pane and Create the first baptism Source from there.
Then when finished creating Citations, immediately use Clone Source Record (no finding or selecting needed).
Repeat as necessary.

So with your method you have to find the previous Source in order to clone it.
With this approach you don't even have to find the Source once, because the Auto Citation pane already has it.

[AdrianBruce]

If you have just created that first baptism Source for Auto Citation then you would have used the Create button on the left, as originally suggested by Lorna.

Therefore, that first baptism Source is already in the Source Title box, and you don't need to find it at all in order to use Clone Source Record. ....

Alas no, Mike.

In the first place, even my first baptism is cloned / copied from a skeleton baptismal-source-record, which contains place-holder values to prompt me what to enter as source-title, author, etc. I never create a source-record from empty.

In the second place, there's every likelihood that the string of baptisms (or whatever) has been interrupted by (a) a burial needed to justify why the names repeat or (b) a log-off. Either way, at some point in the proceedings, the previous source won't be there.

I can see that what I'll be doing is using the cog-menu and its Find-Source-Record option to bring up the Select-Source window, sorting that by Record Number (so the last few are on top) and choosing the latest or not quite latest for citing or cloning, whatever.

It's just that this is really clunky given that the Select-Source window that comes up is identical to the Source-Records window sitting immediately behind it. Why have two windows looking the same and doing different things?

I'll create a Wish List item later requesting the population of the yellow pane from the currently selected source record (or a right click?)

[AdrianBruce]

Also, I just thought... there is something fundamentally illogical about using a Citation pane to create a Source-record (be it cloned or whatever) - the two are different entity types and ought to be kept separate if you want a clean User Interface.

[tatewise]

I think it is often useful to have alternative ways of doing similar thing.
The Auto Source Citation pane can be used without the Records Window ~ Sources tab on show, and then perhaps easier to Find/Create/Clone Sources there.
It is not unlike the yellow Sources pane Add Citation button, that allows an existing Source to be chosen, or New Source created.

Regarding your 'In the first place, ..." scenario, if you start by finding the Skeleton Source in the Auto Source Citation pane and immediately Clone Source Record, then I think my suggestion still holds water.

If you log-off, you have to start the selection process from scratch anyway, so what is the difference between Find Source Record in the Auto Source Citation pane, and finding it in the Records Window ~ Sources tab? I suspect other interruptions, like a different Source Citation, are similar.

As I said earlier, the Auto Source Citation pane can be used without the Records Window ~ Sources tab on show. It is only because you have been working in the Sources tab that it happens to be sitting immediately behind the Find Source Record window.

What would be really useful is if the Source Title droplist and the Find Source Record window, listed the records in the same order as the Records Window ~ Sources tab, just like the yellow Sources pane Add Citation button does. That does need to go in the Wish List or even reported as a bug.

However, I do see that in some circumstances it may be useful to have some shortcut way of setting the Auto Source Citation pane Source Title from the current Source Record selected elsewhere, and that a Wish List item is needed.

[AdrianBruce]

I think it is often useful to have alternative ways of doing similar thing.

Absolutely.

If you log-off, you have to start the selection process from scratch anyway, so what is the difference between Find Source Record in the Auto Source Citation pane, and finding it in the Records Window ~ Sources tab?

But working from a source-centric viewpoint, my point is that I'm always starting from the Source window, where I'm already viewing the source in question. Finding it again just disrupts my work-flow. Other people's mileage may vary. It's just that the original poster and I didn't have this disruption until now.

What would be really useful is if the Source Title droplist and the Find Source Record window, listed the records in the same order as the Records Window ~ Sources tab, just like the yellow Sources pane Add Citation button does. That does need to go in the Wish List or even reported as a bug.

However, I do see that in some circumstances it may be useful to have some shortcut way of setting the Auto Source Citation pane Source Title from the current Source Record selected elsewhere, and that a Wish List item is needed.

I'll sort the latter out later this weekend. Not sure on the orders - they looked the same to me but maybe I've not confused the software enough yet.

[tatewise]

Regarding the Source Record order, via the Auto Source Citation pane they are ALWAYS in alphabetic Title/Short Title order, regardless of the Records Window ~ Sources tab order, which could be by Record Id, or Updated date, etc.

[AdrianBruce]

I have added Wish List item Pre-selection of Source Record for Auto Source Citation pane (12458) for the auto-population.

I have not mentioned the ordering because I've not got it straight in my mind yet.

[LornaCraig]

Regarding the Source Record order, via the Auto Source Citation pane they are ALWAYS in alphabetic Title/Short Title order, regardless of the Records Window ~ Sources tab order, which could be by Record Id, or Updated date, etc.

The drop-down list in the Automatic Source Citations pane is indeed always in alphabetical order. However even this order may be different from the order in the Records window because the latter displays the Short Title if a record has one, and the full Title otherwise. The Automatic Source Citation Pane only displays full Titles in the drop-down list.

On the other hand the list accessed from the cog menu and Find Source Record does use Short Titles where they exist, and does always match the sort order in the Records window. (In 6.0.4. I didn't double-check this in earlier versions.)

Incidentally I think the reason for not using Short Titles at all in the drop-down list has something to do with potential matching between exisiting source titles and titles which have been dragged-and-dropped from web pages. This was discussed during beta testing, when the original plan had been for V6 not to display Short Titles anywhere, even in the Source Pane of the Property Box. After some discussion Calico Pie agreed to re-instate Short Titles in the Records Window and Source Pane, but not in the Automatic Source Citations Pane.

[AdrianBruce]

... the original plan had been for V6 not to display Short Titles anywhere, even in the Source Pane of the Property Box. ...

Oh that would have been a deal breaker if it couldn't be configured back in as a column. My Short-titles are just that - short titles designed to identify the source-record. My (long) Title is closer to the title / description that would appear in an Evidence Explained type citation. Which means that published titles appear in quotes and unpublished titles don't. And your explanation, Lorna, tells me why all the records with a quote at the start of their (long) Title appear before all the others. Which is a pain because I don't think in quotes....!

And, of course, a full EE type title / description can be so long that the crucial identifying text about which passenger list (say) it is, can be at the end and thus not visible if I've got FH running in half a screen with a width-curtailed drop-down list. And people wonder why I dislike working in small windows!

I appreciate that people might want to be able to match titles, but for many of us, the chances of the (long) title matching something that can be dragged from a browser window are about zero.

I think I'll leave the issue of ordering off my Wish List item. It isn't necessary to what I need and it sounds like it could just bring up previous discussions.

[tatewise]

Sorry, my mistake, I don't know what I was seeing, but was so convinced I had to re-install V6.0.3 and check!
However, it is only the Source Title box that ignores the Sources tab order, and maybe that is the way it has to be.