* Birth and death registrations.

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Wilfreda99
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Birth and death registrations.

Post by Wilfreda99 » 06 Nov 2019 16:58

I have just come across a relative who was born and died on the same day, in February 1877. He only lived for 5 minutes, cause of death 'Exhaustion'. His birth and death were registered on that same day by his father and I just wondered if the father had had to make that terrible immediate trip to the Registrar, or if someone present, eg the doctor who certified the death, was able to give the details to the registrar? The column requiring details of informant says it was the father, and he was in attendance. The name in the registrar column is that of the registrar, but of course I am looking at the certified copy rather than the original so no signatures.

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Jane
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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by Jane » 06 Nov 2019 17:06

As far as I know as now all registrations are normally made by Family Members, if the informant had been a 3rd party their name would have been shown on the Certificate.

For example
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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by AdrianBruce » 06 Nov 2019 19:56

I'd agree with Jane - the "informant" is exactly that, the person who reported the event and if it were the doctor, they would be the informant. There are rules about who the informant could be, so the next door neighbour, e.g., couldn't be the informant.
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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by gwilym'smum » 06 Nov 2019 20:29

Adrian,
Don't follow what you say about the informant not being able to be a neighbour. I have a certificate where the informant is a neighbour, as her address is given. Presumably they had to be present at the death. I also have an inmate in the asylum as the informant and also a workhouse master.
Not trying to argue just puzzled.
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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by tatewise » 06 Nov 2019 21:15

Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by gwilym'smum » 06 Nov 2019 21:44

Thank you Mike, those sites are very interesting and useful to pass on to others who are perhaps just starting out as well as those of us who have been researching for longer than we care to remember!
Ann
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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by AdrianBruce » 06 Nov 2019 22:10

Yes - I was summarising but I didn't have enough time to summarise properly.

According to Antony M (a former registrar) on the WDYTYA? Forum,
To register a death you have to be qualified to do so under one of a list of legal criteria.

The qualification of "causing the body to be buried" (or cremated), is used when the person registering the death does not qualify to be allowed to do so in any closer way. Often it may be a friend or neighbour, or a solicitor dealing with the estate of a person with no close family.

These days it is also used quite often for an unmarried partner. They do not qualify as related to the deceased, and unless present at the death have no other way of being allowed to legally register the event which can be very distressing for them.

A relative (for the purpose of registration) is someone related by blood, marriage or adoption. ...
I believe the specific mention of "causing the body to be buried" was introduced in the Birth and Deaths Registration Act in 1874 which overhauled and codified much of the registration system.

"Present at the Death" means exactly what it says - it identifies a specific legal qualification/duty to register a death. The qualifications are in order of precedence so top of the list is "a relative of the deceased, present at the death" ...... "a person present at the death" i.e. not a relative, comes further down, and "the person causing the burial or cremation of the body", as it is now worded is the lowest qualification allowed. [Not sure if these 3 are the only ones on the list. AB]

Being present is not strictly defined as being in the room at the time of the last breath, so a person in the house or at the hospital, even if they have stepped out of the actual room at the exact time of death would still be noted as "present at the death". It has nothing to do with living at the same address or any other relationship.
So, yes, what I was trying to convey is that simply being a neighbour, and nothing more, is not a qualification to register the death. If the neighbour were present at the death, or if they were arranging the funeral, then they would be qualified, but even so it appears that "a relative of the deceased, present at the death" would be top of the list and expected to register the death. Of course, there must have been instances where it would be privately agreed that the father (or whoever) hadn't been there, regardless of the truth, but that's the order that's supposed to apply.
Adrian

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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by gwilym'smum » 07 Nov 2019 09:17

Hi Adrian
I have come across "causing the cremation of the body". It was for my cousin's grandmother who had taken several years of research. When we finally found her death we were hoping that the informant would lead to someone who knew her. Alas when I phoned the Register Office in Blackpool the lady explained that it was actually the undertaker. I Googled the undertaker and sadly they had been taken over and the Co-op the new owner's records did not go back to 1964. This was such a sad end to what from all our research turned out to be a very sad life. I turned to the council and Blackpool Council were very helpful and they told me where her ashes had been scattered so I was able to go and take a photograph of the rose garden and send it to my cousin. I have just recounted this story to say that if you are in this situation if you ring round to Register Offices, Google undertakers and councils you can still bring a close to your ancestor's story.
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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by Rusty » 07 Nov 2019 09:46

With regard to a father registering the birth and death of his baby on the same day, not as traumatic I know but my husband was advised by the doctor to register his fathers death just hours later as that was the only time to catch the Registrar in the village otherwise there would be a wait of days or a long journey to try and catch him somewhere else. In 1877 with perhaps little transport this could have been a deciding factor in this quick registration.

Interestingly it is one of the 'new style' (1983) certificates and only asks for the Qualification of the Informant not if they were present at the death, which he wasn't.

Margaret

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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by tatewise » 07 Nov 2019 12:14

I have updated the following Knowledge Base pages with links to the guides mentioned earlier (plus related guides).
The general information at Family Tree Resources in England and Wales is quite extensive.

Knowledge Base > Genealogy Presentations by Family Tree Resources and Vital Documents.
Knowledge Base > Census Records
Knowledge Base > Birth Certificates
Knowledge Base > Baptism Records
Knowledge Base > Marriage Certificates
Knowledge Base > Marriage Records
Knowledge Base > Death Certificates
Knowledge Base > Burial Records
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Wilfreda99
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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by Wilfreda99 » 07 Nov 2019 15:51

Many thanks for all your speedy responses. The family lived in the middle of Nottingham, on Angel Row, he was a jeweller and, according to Google, it is a 3 minute walk to Nottingham City Council, which I assume would be where he went. So perhaps it was something he could actually do whilst the doctor and, presumably, midwife, were dealing with mother.
I would add a smilie for thanks but it doesn't seem appropriate, somehow.
Cheers,
Chris

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Re: Birth and death registrations.

Post by AdrianBruce » 07 Nov 2019 17:15

Wilfreda99 wrote:
07 Nov 2019 15:51
... it is a 3 minute walk to Nottingham City Council, which I assume would be where he went. ...
If you can find a contemporary directory for Nottingham, have a look for the Registrars of Births and Deaths - that'll be where he went. (Look for the Registrar's name but in the section on the "civic officers"for Nottingham.)

If it's anything like the Chester example I once investigated, my impression was that the Superintendent Registrar was the full time employee with the permanent office. The Registrars of Births and Deaths each had a sub-district and reported to him but appeared to be (at that time and I've forgotten when) part time in that they had other professions such as teachers or shop-keepers (fallible memory here) so their address was their home or place of (other) business. As they completed each birth or death registration book, then it was handed over to the Superintendent Registrar, who kept the "archived" books. I think that at some point the Registrars of Births and Deaths became full-time employees reporting to the SR but I've no idea when the transition happened.
Adrian

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