* Import from TMG with Sort Date in GEDCOM

[ColeValleyGirl]

Sorry, Don, but my *only* use for sort dates is to handle the ordering of identically-dated facts (occupation before residence before death, for example). You (and TMG) may use them for something else, but they don't have a single primary use.

[jbtapscott]

Sorry Mike. The Birth Fact belongs to the child, while the Occupation and Residence facts belong to the Informant (the Father in my case).

The Birth Fact utilises the Witness feature and has the Father listed as the Informant. Thus, when viewed in the Facts tab, this Witness Role appears against the Father with the little blue arrow against it, while the Occupation and Residence facts have the normal blue dots. All three are showing the same date of "9th October 1919" but after running the Sort pluguin, the first two have Sort Dates of "9th October 1919" while the Resindece fact has a Sort Date of "10th October 1919".

[E Wilcock]

Well, no Mike. The primary use of Sort Dates is to maintain the order of Events when the date is unknown or only partially known.

Or to quote the TMG Help:
Sort dates are used to maintain chronological order on the Person View, and in narrative reports, Individual Detail reports and Family Group Sheets. They do not print or export and have no genealogical significance.

Don

I agree with this - But the bit about them not exporting may be misleading. TMG sort dates were used in Web building by Secondsite. But Second site worked directly from the TMG Project. i.e. no export required.

And that presents problems for those of us who have moved to fh and Gedsite. The sort dates are lost on import to fh. Mike is putting in this effort to allow their import and then design their re-export to Gedsite via GEDCOM - At the same time integrating the ex-TMG data with any new data entered in fh.

And Don, many thanks for joining the discussion - invaluable to have someone expert in TMG. (Mike sorry - may be a day or two before I can try this new version)

[tatewise]

Well that was an interesting response.

Did nobody spot that I said "identically dated facts" means "identical Date values, whether actual or blank"?
So that covers all your cases of undated facts, and actual Dates whether partial or full.
Perhaps a better word would have been 'similarly' dated facts.

@Brent ~ The Sort Date is only effectively applied to the facts held within an Individual or a Family record.
i.e. Those with blue bullets and red bullets, and NOT grey bullet Timeline Facts nor blue arrow Witness Facts.
The blue arrow Witness Fact only exists in the child's record, not the father's, so must have the Birth Sort Date.
Only the Occupation and Residence facts exist in the father's record with identical Dates, so the Residence gets the Occupation fact Sort Date + 1 day. If necessary, you can manually change all three Sort Dates such that they are all unique.
As the Help & Advice plugins:help:order_facts_by_sort_date:order_facts_by_sort_date#automatic_fact_sorting|> Automatic Fact Sorting says, the sort order may only be fully apparent on the All tab of the Property Box, or in the Records Window, or in Reports. The Facts tab by default will predominantly still list facts in their Date order.

@Don ~ If you read the earlier posts in this thread it has been proven that TMG _SDATE Sort Dates do export in GEDCOM.
If you would like to help testing this feature then please do so.
Also, here we are talking about Sort Dates in FH and GedSite & RootsMagic.
They can be initialised from TMG but their purpose and impact is slightly different.

[Linda Reinfeld]

I have just seen this discussion - I've been too busy changing dates in my TMG project to accommodate FH no-sort-dates!!

This was a long thread - I'm not exactly sure what to do exactly. Are these the steps?

1. Direct import from TMG to FH (new project)
2. Create a TMG GEDCOM (which will use sort dates)
3. run new plug-in Order Facts by Sort Date.
Am I correct in assuming this plug-in will take the sort dates from the TMG GEDCOM and add them to the original TMG direct import FH project?

I am concerned about the GedSite plugin, and will test that after I understand this new feature.

Thanks for the work on this.

Linda Reinfeld

[tatewise]

That is correct Linda, see Help & Advice page at plugins:help:order_facts_by_sort_date:order_facts_by_sort_date|> Order Facts by Sort Date Plugin.

But remember this is still a prototype Plugin, so practice on a Copy of you Project or ensure you have a Small Backup to recover from if necessary.

Please review a sample of TMG Sort Dates to check they have been imported into the FH Project.

[E Wilcock]

Linda - as Mike warns, this is just trial at the moment.

The fh project (use a Copy at this stage) does not need to be a fresh import from TMG. One can use this plug in on any project even if it has been in fh for quite some time.

For ex-TMG users the plug in has an option to read and to insert the sort dates in a GEDCOM exported from TMG. I am assuming that like me you still have archive copies of all your TMG Projects still in TMG 9.05 (the latest release)'
There are instructions in this thread for opting for a custom export which allows the Gedcom generated by TMG 9.05 to include sort dates.
One can navigate Mike's plug in to a TMG generated Gedcom.

And in a flash the plug in gives all your individual events and tags the sort date they had in TMG.

What it wont do is overwrite date fields you have entered in fh, if you have been going through tidying and dating everything.

Mike has turned his attention to family events like marriages now and I am about to download the latest versions and have a look. It will be excellent to have you do it too.

[E Wilcock]

Mike, I downloaded the update of 12 Dec.
I exported a new gedcom as I couldnt remember what I did before and ran it on my Sadler tree.

As we are dealing with family events, I looked at my Grandmother who married twice and her marriages are in the correct order.

However I am sorry to tell you that her engagement to her second husband appears after their marriage. I dont have a day and month for her second marriage, just a year. Whereas I do have a day and month and year for her engagement to her second husband.

[tatewise]

Evelyn, can you give more explicit details please, because I cannot explain or debug without knowing actual dates.

What are the TMG Sort Dates for those events?
What are the actual Dates for those events in FH?
What are the LMO Sort Dates for those events in FH?

[E Wilcock]

Working in archive today so will get back on this later or tomorrow.
But I have realised Mike that I dont know how to access the family events for a person in fh. They are not listed on the ALL tab? or are they?
But I did snip some data. (Useless in this context but I did it anyway.)

[E Wilcock]

I can now report
If I open the Project in TMG and look at the Person Window for my grandmother, the events of her life show in the correct order. i.e. as I arranged them when transcribing a lot of autobiographical material from her memoir.
The date of her engagement and its sort date are both 16 Sept 1924.
The date of her wedding is given as year only 1924 and the sort date is: __ Oct 1924 . I dont know the significance of the underlne, it was generated by TMG.
You ask about the actual dates in fh,
I now have two versions of the project in fh - Sadler the one opened directly from the TMG file has the events the wrong way round on the facts tab, the 1924 marriage followed by the 16 Sept 1924 engagement. And on the facts tab for the family too.

I should remind you that this very recent import has not been adjusted or tidied in any way. Nor even closely examined. It was not necessarilly expected to be the final import - I brought it into fh in order to identify and add the donors of some of my grandmother's childhood books. In doing so I used AS to add a few censuses. I did no reordering of events in fh nor giving people individual events.

In the fh copy of the project against which I ran the plug in: Opening up the pluses on the family events the wedding has a sort date of 31 December 1924 and the engagement has a sort date of 16 September 1924.
But this correct sort order does not correct the order on the facts tab for my grandmother.

I am not clear what you mean by the actual dates in fh. They are 1924 for the wedding and 16 September 1924 for the engagement.

May be this is my misunderstanding? And the plug in was never intended to do that? Only to re-export for GEDSIte. Or I was supposed to run the tool to re order events in fh? As I said, I did nothing except just open the project and look.

Your next question is about LMO sort dates. My brain is so old and forgetful, that I cant remember what those are and need to consult the thread where you explained them to me. But I am going to post this rather than lose it.

It seems very possible that there is nothing wrong with the plug in - it is my user error in knowing where to look and how to re-order events.

[tatewise]

Your earlier snip does at least show a lot of TMG GEDCOM _SDATE Sort Dates are being recognised.
But nearly as many facts are having their LMO Sort Date derived internally from FH data.

The LMO Sort Dates are those All tab Sort Dates you reported.

What it demonstrates is that the Family Event Sort Dates are NOT being imported from the TMG GEDCOM.
If you remember, the TMG Family Record Id were thought to be different from the FH Family Record Id.
So I invented a technique in the Plugin to try and match them up, but it is not working.

Could you post the TMG GEDCOM file 0 @F***@ FAM tags including all the subsequent facts and HUSB, WIFE, & CHIL links.

Could you also post a screen shot of the Focus Window for that Family BUT ensure Customize View has Record Ids ticked.

BTW: The quick way to get to a Family record Property Box is to click the blue bar that spans under the spouses and holds their Married details in the Focus Window.

[E Wilcock]

Mike I have read this. But I think it better to do what you ask in the morning. When I can work it out with a fresh mind and do as you ask.
I was not able to go to the Archives till today and I am tired after a full day's concentration.

[Linda Reinfeld]

Hi Mike -

I have done some testing - some of the results are OK, but others aren't. Right now I'm just working with the Individual sort dates (not family). Should get that sorted out first. <joke>

I have a person with a will TMG dated May 1658 and sort date of Nov 1658.
The fact after running the plugin has a sort date of 31 May 1658.
I thought the plugin was to use sort dates from the GedCom.
This happens with most Wills, which have a different sort date than actual date.

Another person has 6 undated tags in TMG. All the sort dates come across correctly except for the last tag.
Name is ResearchSource with undated date, sort date of 1930. In FH the sort date is 19 Apr 1895. This is a duplicate sort date with CauseDeath, which occurs the day after death.

Do any of these manipulations depend on or are changed by designating something in the Normal Time box for the fact types?

Linda Reinfeld

[E Wilcock]

Linda, I think your will illustrates normal behaviour. That any sort date is over-ridden by a date entered in the normal date field.

I never entered wills like that with a double date. The date of the will precedes death and Probate follows it.

[E Wilcock]

Could you post the TMG GEDCOM file 0 @F***@ FAM tags including all the subsequent facts and HUSB, WIFE, & CHIL links.

Mike - It took me some time to find the family records. It is family record 13 for her second marriage but I have included the one for her first marriage (record 12) and the start of the subsequent (14) so you can see what precedes and follows from the GEDCOM exported by TMG

0 @F12@ FAM
1 HUSB @I15@
1 WIFE @I14@
1 CHIL @I16@
1 CHIL @I194@
1 CHIL @I1835@
1 CHIL @I1836@
1 MARR
2 DATE 02 JUN 1909
2 _SDATE 02 JUN 1909
2 PLAC Rugby School Chapel, Rugby, Warwickshire
2 NOTE The other witness was Hariot A. Weaver, Frank's Guardian.
2 _SHAR @I13@
3 ROLE Witness
2 _SHAR @I1726@
3 ROLE Witness
2 SOUR @S460@
2 SOUR @S736@
0 @F13@ FAM
1 HUSB @I80@
1 WIFE @I14@
1 CHIL @I81@
1 ENGA
2 DATE 16 SEP 1924
2 _SDATE 16 SEP 1924
2 NOTE Engaged to Randall in Times
2 SOUR @S418@
1 MARR
2 DATE 1924
2 _SDATE OCT 1924
2 PLAC Rugby, Warwickshire
0 @F14@ FAM
1 HUSB @I17@

And this from earlier in the same GEDCOM is an extract that follows her death and relates the individual record to her families
1 DEAT
2 DATE 15 JUL 1970
2 _SDATE 15 JUL 1970
2 PLAC Ashtead, Surrey
2 SOUR @S36@
3 PAGE obit from Rugby Advertiser
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Images
2 _SDATE 2000
2 NOTE polyfotos of her are in (her mother's papers) in red box file A
2 SOUR @S39@
2 SOUR @S36@
3 PAGE order of service
1 FAMS @F12@
1 FAMS @F13@
1 FAMC @F10@
0 @I15@ INDI
1 NAME Francis B. /West/

I will post this and look for the fh info you asked for.
Given the long history of this particular project and my haphazard data entry, would you like me to use the TMG sample project or another smaller and possibly more recent and more orderly Project of my own?

[E Wilcock]

Focus image -Image with personal data served its purpose and now removed

[E Wilcock]

And the family All - I dont seem to have a clickable blue bar. There is a panel with the date of marriage and I clicked that.
I think maybe we can delete these images once you have them Mike? As they do feature close family.
Image now removed.

[tatewise]

Sorry for the delay, but have been busy today.

@Linda ~ Contrary to Evelyn's response, a TMG GEDCOM _SDATE Sort Date should take precedence over any fact Date in FH as clearly stated in plugins:help:order_facts_by_sort_date:order_facts_by_sort_date#sort_date_auto-derivation|> Sort Date Auto-Derivation.
The only thing with a higher precedence is an existing FH Sort Date previously assigned to the fact.
They are NOT affected by the Normal Time Frame setting.
I suspect the problem with the Will and ResearchSource facts is they are the last facts for those Individuals, and that should now be fixed.

@Evelyn ~ The panel with the date of marriage is the blue bar I was talking about that spans under the spouses.
I have found an error in the fact sorting that explains why your Engagement and Marriage are in wrong order - sorry!
Everything looks correct to allow the GEDCOM FAM entry to match the FH Family record.
Please confirm that the Sort Dates shown in your latest All tab screenshot do NOT exist prior to running the Plugin.
You can delete those posted images now.

Try attached Order Facts by Sort Date Plugin Version 0.6 Date 17 Dec 2017.
[ Attachment deleted as superseded by many later versions. ]

This fixes the sorting problem, and last fact problem, and improves the summary of Sort Date derivation.
Also for the moment it shows the relationship between TMG Family Rec Id in range 12 to 14 and FH Family Rec Id to confirm that they are matching up correctly for Evelyn's Project.

[E Wilcock]

Mike - and Linda sorry about my error.
A small question about the Person ID numbers.
In the TMG enhanced export of GEDCOM there is an option to export the individual numbers. I did not check that. All I did (you asked) was to check that the ID numbers that came into fh on a direct import (i.e. opening the TMG file) were the same for each person as they had been in TMG.

[tatewise]

For the time being, don't change the way you export the TMG GEDCOM as the Individual Record Id seem to be matching up with FH OK, in both yours and Linda's projects. It is only the Family Record Id that may be an issue, but I think even those are OK, and the latest Plugin should confirm that.

[E Wilcock]

Please confirm that the Sort Dates shown in your latest All tab screenshot do NOT exist prior to running the Plugin.

Mike to reassure you, this is the same screen in my active fh project for that family. i.e. not run with your plug in.
And you can see they are not there. No sort dates exist in fh. Or rather I think they do not.

Do not apologise for delay - I have grandchildren coming tomorrow. So may not be able to try this at once. And must apologise too. We all have stuff going on due to Christmas and life in general. I think what you are doing is wonderful. And a bonus. There is no hurry.

[tatewise]

OK, that is understood.
Could you download the Plugin Version 0.6 again please, as I have made a small correction that should fix the failed import of TMG Sort Dates for the last fact in each record, that applies to Evelyn's Marriage and probably Linda's Will & ResearchSource facts.

[Linda Reinfeld]

Mike -

I downloaded and ran the latest plugin - on a new test copy of my data (I reload my data every time from TMG). Unfortunately, nothing changed.
The will tag, with an actual date of May 1658 and sort date of Nov 1658 ended in FH with a sort date of May 31 1658 . The Will tag was not the last tag in TMG, there is an undated tag ResearchSource with no actual date and a sort date of 1699 which ended in FH with a sort date of Jul 1 1658.

The second problem was the ResearchSource tag in TMG with no actual date and sort date of 1930 still ended in FH with a sort date of Apr 19, 1895. That ResearchSource tag was the last tag for the person.

I know I ran the latest version because of the stats at the end of the plugin - 8364 facts, which did not change, but the reasons for the changes did. Also I got 3 messages: TMG Family Record ID xx matches FH Family Record ID yy.

This is great that you can add a sort date to the records. But why can't it be done at the same time as direct conversion from TMG (or other programs that use sort dates). That way there would be no problem with people migrating. They would have what they had before, and could run your program to 'fix up' their 'incorrect' data (such as duplicate sort dates). If you can read a GEDCOM file with a sort date and put it into a proper place in FH I would think a direct conversion program could do the same thing....

Linda Reinfeld

[E Wilcock]

Image with personal data served its purpose and now removed. Sorry. technical problem as I didnt remove it but posted afresh!