* 'Ancestors by Generation' - NOT in narrative form?

[ctb]

At the risk of getting into trouble with Tatewise (!), I'm going to post this seemingly basic question because I can't find an answer to it online, and the FH software is anything but intuitive in the Book production department!
I like the "Ancestors by Generation" and "Descendants by Generation" reports but am not so keen on the narrative style. Initially, I did like it but now find it rather stilted and would rather have a simple list of facts for each person. But I can find no option for that in the Books functionality.
Any ideas please?!
Thanks

[LornaCraig]

Have you looked at Outline Reports > Ancestor Outline and Descendant Outline?
They can be customised in the Report Options, including omitting the connecting lines if you don't want them.

[ctb]

Thanks Lorna, I find the "Outline" version not quite what I'm looking for either.
I seem to remember seeing reports that simply listed the occupations and residences rather than putting them in narrative form, but I can't find them now. Whilst I know they are a bit cold, I find the narrative quite tedious ("In 1939, he lived in York. On 28 March 1946 he lived Scarborough. In 1947 he married....").
I think FH is pretty good considering all the information it takes in and manages, but the books section is functionally poorly designed in my opinion. I've already spent so much time entering all the info, now FH should make it easy for me to get it out...!
Thanks for responding, I do appreciate it!
Best wishes.

[steveflanuk]

I have to admit that I'm not a huge fan of narrative reports - but that's just my personal preference. Have you looked under the Miscellaneous reports group?

Publish > Miscellaneous Reports > Individual Summary Report (for Web, CD or DVD).

I have customised this for my own individual reports, along with the Family Group Sheet which is under the same group.

[tatewise]

The Publish > Books command is not the best place to start when reviewing available reports styles, as it only combines the available Reports found in the other Publish options.

The Publish > Individual Summary Report and also Publish > Family Group Sheet use lists of facts.

Could you be more specific about why you don't like Outline reports.
It may be that you have not explored all its customisation Options.

In addition you have extensive control over the narrative sentence construction in those Narrative Reports.
That can make them a lot less stilted, or as some users have done, even customise them into a list format.
e.g. Start each Sentence Template with a newline <br> code, the fact name, a colon, and a tab character, followed by {_place} and other details as desired.
See how_to:narrative_report_fact_sentence_templates|> Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates for customisation details.

However, if planning to make such drastic format changes then use Tools > Fact Types > Fact Sets and Clone the Standard set so you can easily switch between the default sentences and your list format.

I would advise against using the Miscellaneous > ...(for Web, CD or DVD) reports which are reserved for the Publish > Create a Website/Make a Family Tree commands. Instead, use the Save Report As > Custom Report Type and build up your own library of report styles under Publish > Custom Reports. They can just as easily be combined into Books as any other reports.

[ctb]

Thanks Mike - and please can you get on a train to London and show me how right now!
Re outline reports, I just prefer the structure of the narrative reports, but would like them to be in less stilted language. But also, I am trying to produce books for the whole family - to include an introduction and diagrams (ie not just an individual report).
The Individual Summary Report with its list of Individual Events and Attributes is excellent, but why can't it merge that with an "Ancestors by Generation" report so that all generations are included...?
Maybe the answer is to add loads of Individual Summary Reports, but then this seems that I am doing all the work (when I feel I have already done all the work in finding and entering the information in the first place!)
Sigh...!

[ctb]

I have to admit that I'm not a huge fan of narrative reports - but that's just my personal preference. Have you looked under the Miscellaneous reports group?

Publish > Miscellaneous Reports > Individual Summary Report (for Web, CD or DVD).

I have customised this for my own individual reports, along with the Family Group Sheet which is under the same group.

Thanks Steve, much appreciate you replying. I covered most of what I am looking for in my later reply to Tatewise - it looks like I'm wanting too much... t'was ever thus!

[E Wilcock]

I couldnt agree more.
I dont think it is fussy to want non narrative but complete reports. These may be standard in other software. I myself asked about this a couple of weeks ago for a descendants report, and Mike told me that yes, one could get rid of the lines and indents for successive generations.

Evelyn, it would help if you were more specific . . . .

Outline Reports can certainly be customised to remove the lines and each Fact start on a new line.
See Report > Options > Main tab Connecting Lines and Layout Events and Attributes ... on separate lines.

Investigate all the other Report > Options and tell us what style you would like so we can advise about options to achieve that.
Then, yes, that can be saved as a Custom Report Type.

I apologise, I just havent had time to sort out and experiment with the editing. On that occasion I output a narrative and doctored it by hand in Word.
May be if you are in London ctb, we could meet at some point and work it out together?

I dont know how to cross reference the other thread, (pasted in above) but the next step might be for someone to design and put on line examples of what can be done using fh, together with exact instructions for achieiving that result?

[Jane]

When you add Individual Summary Reports, simply select the Relatives option on the bottom of the record selection and then select Ancestors or Descendants.

If you want to the change the sentences and still use the Narrative reports, just use Tools > Fact Types to customise the Sentences to your preference.

As Mike has stated in the Report formats (15201) thread the outline reports can easily be customised to something similar to what you want.

[tatewise]

There are two themes to this posting that are in danger of getting inextricably intertwined, so can we please focus on one at a time or start another posting for one of them.

1) Report Types
It is fairly well known, that despite being highly customisable, FH Reports are not always able to mimic what other products can produce.
However, I suggest experimenting with each type from Publish > Individual Summary Report to Publish > Outline Reports and use the Options button on the right to customise them. See how_to:index#publish_reports_books_or_family_trees|> Publish Reports, Books, or Family Trees. Yes, it is a shame that there is no Generation by Generation report using the Individual Summary Report list style.

2) Book Contents
FH Books are simply an amalgamation of Diagrams and Reports of any type, plus optionally a Title Page, Table of Contents, Free Text pages, and an Index.
So you can include multiple Diagrams and Reports of any type for any people, but the customisation of those Diagrams and Reports is best done in isolation before including them in a Book.

[E Wilcock]

OK - I dont care what thread it goes in. Nor that it is well known one cant.

The fact is that I cant produce reports in fh, and the fact that another user is in difficulties too suggests we are not understanding the solutions offered us.

Although I can remove the X for lines as per instructions above.

I have no idea how to alter the generational indents. May be that is why I didnt persevere when it came up before.

And I also dont know how to get a narrative report to start a new line for each fact.

And I dont know how to get the non narrative to omit the labels. I use a custom tag called Event misc. for anything that doesnt fit a gedcom Tag and I dont want the name cropping up all over the place.

And if there is some help or examples on line somewhere, other than the very brief instructions in the Book Getting the Most from Family Historian, for saving as a custom report - that would be helpful. Because saving at that stage where one has selected an individual, suggested to me that one was saving the individuals report rather than a new template.

Mike kindly made me a custom report at one stage long ago -but one needs to be able to do it oneself.

[ColeValleyGirl]

I do agree with Evelyn that a set of report examples (with suggestions on how they could be further customised) would be a very useful thing or rather, more varied examples in the Knowledge Base section for report downloads.

I have no idea how to alter the generational indents. May be that is why I didnt persevere when it came up before.

If you go to the Page Layout tab, when editing the report options, the tab width setting will alter this.

And I also dont know how to get a narrative report to start a new line for each fact.

Mike advised earlier in this thread how to customise Narrative reports to get each fact on a new tab by customising the sentence template for each fact: "In addition you have extensive control over the narrative sentence construction in those Narrative Reports. That can make them a lot less stilted, or as some users have done, even customise them into a list format. e.g. Start each Sentence Template with a newline <br> code, the fact name, a colon, and a tab character, followed by {_place} and other details as desired."

And I dont know how to get the non narrative to omit the labels. I use a custom tag called Event misc. for anything that doesnt fit a gedcom Tag and I dont want the name cropping up all over the place.

One option would be to change the label on your Event misc. fact to be (e.g.) Other (Unfortunately I can't see how you can get a blank label; I don't think this is possible.). Your facts would then show up with Other as a label (or whatever you chose) instead of Event misc. If that would be any help to improve readability, I can give you instructions. This does mean that if you were going to add another such Fact, you'd add an 'Other' fact not an 'Event misc.' fact.

[Shiriki]

Hi All

I tend to agree that the default Narrative style of reports guilt into FH initially presented me with a block of text filling the page which was difficult to read. By placing a <br> in front of each Fact within the sentence template improved the appearance no end. However, the sentences generated were very repetitive and somewhat staccato in their phrasing……He was a…He experienced……(?) etc.
From my own experience (and the benefit of hindsight) I would recommend cloning the original Fact Set and create a custom set and then set this custom set to a higher priority in the Fact Set list rankings. After this then start experimenting with the sentence construction within each such cloned custom Fact.
I have done this to a number of my Facts and it has improved the readability and appearance of such Narrative Reports. It also requires some creative thinking so the sentence the Fact generates is suitable wherever it is used.
As an example my Individual Census Fact sentence is constructed as follows (with a nod of appreciation to Mike Tate to get the sentence generated to distinguish between a Census and the 1939 National Register):

<br>{individual} appeared in the {=TextIf(GetDisplayText(%FACT.DATE%,min) = "29 September 1939","1939 National Register","Census")} {date} residing at {_place} {age}

A typical Individual sentence generated for a Census appears as follows:

He appeared in the Census on 31 March 1901 residing at 48, Springfield, Sydenham, London, England aged 48.

I have a custom Census Fact (co-residence) which I enter for a ‘couple’ which is constructed in a similar manner as follows:

<br>{couple} appeared in the {=TextIf(GetDisplayText(%FACT.DATE%,min) = "29 September 1939","National Register","Census")} {date} residing at {_place} {their ages}

Sentence generated as follows:

They appeared in the Census on 31 March 1901 residing at 48, Springfield, Sydenham, Lewisham, London, England when he was 34 and she was 31.

If the date entered is 29 September 1939 then the sentence might appear thus for the couple:

They appeared in the National Register on 29 September 1939 residing at 52, Acacia Avenue, Sydenham, Lewisham, London, England.

I use a separate Occupation (Census) Fact to record an Occupation listed within a Census/1939 National Register:

<br>Within the {=TextIf(GetDisplayText(%FACT.DATE%,min) = "29 September 1939","National Register","Census")} taken {date} {his/her} occupation was recorded as a <'{value}'>< working at {_place}><{note}>

A typical sentence generated would appear as follows:

Within the Census taken on 2 April 1911 his occupation was recorded as a ‘Plumbers Labourer’.

And for a National Register date:

Within the National Register taken on 29 September 1939 his occupation was recorded as a ‘Electric Cable Jointer’.

I would point out that I only use the Place field for a location (I don’t use the Address field at all) and a separate Occupation (Census) fact to record an individual’s Occupation, which is particularly useful if you know where their place of employment was which can be entered in the Place field in this instance.
Whilst FH can be customised ad nauseum, I believe a number of people are put off by lack of knowledge/experience/confidence…….it certainly has applied to me in the past, but thankfully due to this forum (and Mike Tate in particular) in my limited way I have made huge progress.

I know I have touched on this area in the past on this forum but I believe it would be useful to have something along the line of ‘best of breed’ Fact Type sentences in an area of this website where ’we’ could place our collective examples of sentences which we use to improve our reports. Mike Tate has suggested this to me in the past (see my posting Burial and Interred (or similar) Icons on Diagrams (14653)) when I was ‘messing around’ with sentence construction and also icons on diagrams that I could start something off within the Knowledge Base as the site is a Wiki (?)……….I must admit that I have done nothing to date to educate myself about this, but will have a look to see what that entails…..but again lack of knowledge/experience/confidence may hold me back without a helping hand…

Would something like this be useful to share sentences/expressions and the like which could then be copied and pasted into one’s own custom Fact Set to see if the default reports are improved to your liking?

Best Regards to all

Shiriki

[tatewise]

The book Getting the Most from Family Historian has at least 4 pages on using Report Options including an 18 step worked example, towards the end of Chapter 17. Reports or 15. Reports and Narratives depending the book version.

I am not sure of the best way forward with example reports in the Knowledge Base.
Should the Downloads section, as well as providing the customised report, also explain the Report Option customisations used to achieve it, plus further useful customisation possibilities?

What about Shiriki's idea of a Sentence Template download library?
Or perhaps some pre-customised Fact Sets for the Standard facts?

To reiterate what has been said many times before, using Save Report As > Custom Report Type (and Save Diagram As > Custom Diagram Type) creates a new template of custom option settings.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Mike, re Knowledge Base downloads, I think all of these would be useful -- we're back to show not tell suitng some people best. (Plus I spent a lifetime at work encouraging people not to reinvent the wheel).

Of course, the examples can't possibly cover all the possibilities, but perhaps asking (in a seperate thread) for examples of reports and/or facts that people have generated to suit their needs, or requirements they haven't figured out how to meet yet would be helpful? I know people can add their own material to the KnowledgeBase, but it isn't quite as straightforward as it might be.

[jbtapscott]

I agree with Shiriki's comment about repetitive phrasing, but it is relatively easy to avoid this by changing the sentence structure so that it does not always start with {Individual} or {He/She}.

A number of my Fact sentences start with {Date} (e.g. "<br>{date} {individual} was included on the ..." for Ships Passenger Lists), while, for a Burial, I use "<br>Following {his/her} death, {individual} was buried< {date}>....." - a similar structure is used for Grant of Probate and Letters of Administration Facts. I also swing between He/She, His/Her and the individuals first name to provide variety in the sentences.

[tatewise]

As an experiment I have updated how_to:narrative_report_fact_sentence_templates|> Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates with an Alternative Sentence Templates section to offer a library of different sentence styles.

Also in fhugdownloads:reporttemplates|> Downloads and Links ~ Report Types for both fhugdownloads:contents:individuals_list_report|> Report Type ~ Individuals List and fhugdownloads:contents:source_summary_with_notes|> Report Type ~ Source Summary and Notes I've added a Customisation section.

Are these moving in the right direction?

I am also thinking that we need some new Report Types to mimic the report styles of other products, particularly for migrants from those products.

[ColeValleyGirl]

I agree about mimicking familiar styles for incoming migrants -- those of us who have always used FH take the ability to customise it extensively for granted, and can overlook that others are used to certain reports, etc. to be 'out of the box.'

I think the additions to the Knowledge Base are going in the right direction, but we need to hear from less experienced users what they would find useful -- perhaps start a thread calling for suggestions (with examples of what's wanted).

[craigmollekin]

I feel everybody's pain with regards to producing reports. Without jumping through more hoops than a dog at Crufts and feeling like I'm having to reprogramme the whole software, I've never been able to output anything like the attached.

I've been using this software since 2009, and why Simon Orde has never thought to produce a function that simply outputs facts in bullet point form has always mystified me. I can only assume that he loves huge blocks of text that would send a glass eye to sleep, or the software simply won't somehow permit it. It just needs a simple option like it has in other genealogy software. Having to produce and input complex sentence structures that look like something out of Isaac Newton's notebook really shouldn't be necessary in 2017.

I would recommend http://www.tcgr.bufton.org/ to anybody wishing to produce an easy to read and professional looking report.

[BobWard]

I've been using this software since 2009, and why Simon Orde has never thought to produce a function that simply outputs facts in bullet point form has always mystified me.

I am probably misinterpreting what you are referring to with the above statement, but doesn't the ISR format produce that type of output?

I have attached a partial output page from one of my ISRs for my father-in-law. It provides that chronological Fact by Fact output, with explanatory notes that I type into the Note boxes for each Fact. This is the only format that I use - all text is generated by me via Note boxes, not the computer templates.

[craigmollekin]

Yes, Bob, it does and I like that output. I would be very grateful if you could explain to me how to achieve that very same output in a 'Descendants by Generation' report.

[BobWard]

Craig,

Unfortunately, I have never played around with the 'Descendants by Generation' report format. My family tree book (that I hope to publish before year-end and send to all my relatives) is simply a compilation of all the ISRs for everyone in my database. It will include an Index that can be used to track people (via page numbers) by Record ID and name.

I would imagine that someone will come along shortly and explain how you might accomplish that same format in the 'Descendants by Generation' report.

Hope it works out for you.

[craigmollekin]

I was only really echoing what the original poster wrote, Bob. The responses have so far been varied if you look back. But I was just trying to make the point that this should be a basic feature rather than a 'power user' feature. This can easily be achieved at the click of a button in FTM whereas, in Family Historian, complex sentence structures have to be created which, in my opinion, are still not as good.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Craig, does the Descendant Outline report suit you?

Screenshot 2017-08-30 08.18.07.png (78.07 KiB) Viewed 16085 times

[Valkrider]

@Helen

That report means something to us as it is displayed because we understand it. However, give that report to someone who doesn't understand genealogy and it will likely be confusing.

I can see where some of the comments on this thread are coming from in that to the uninitiated a lot will be confusing because there is no narrative tying the individuals together with the events and their relatives.