* UK Historical County Mapping Software

[David Potter]

Hi All

I'm getting a little bit overwhelmed with Research data where UK (England and Wales) County Boundaries and their names have changed over time. And this is causing havoc with the FH Geocoding feature.
Does anyway know of a software package that can identify UK County Boundary/Name changes over time? I have seen a package called 'Map my Family Tree' but suspect it is USA biased, something similar would be interesting.

Any suggestions/recommendations welcome.

Thanks in advance...

David

[AdrianBruce]

Perhaps unhelpfully, I have never felt the necessity for generic county changes maps, etc. Maps are only ever snapshots and seldom for the period I want.

I have always worked from the data (What "county" does it say in the Source?) and from the history of the place in Wikipedia - with the proviso that I may need to look at the history of the nearest big town.

Part of the reason for that, is that I am unsure if I would agree with the definitions of County in anyone else's data. Is Bristol its own county or is it in Gloucestershire? Depends what sort of County you mean, you see.... And there are sites, etc., out there that, however valuable they are, are also pushing their own agenda - such as The Association of British Counties. On that basis, I tend just to work on a case by case basis. Indeed, I break my own rules - normally I use the contemporary "administrative county", but for example - Peterborough is its own unitary authority but I recently decided that "Peterborough, Peterborough, England" was fairly nonsensical, so altered it to "Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, England", the contemporary (and current) ceremonial county.

It's worth just taking a deep breath because I seriously don't think Utopia exists on this topic.

[AdrianBruce]

It occurs to me that my response might be seen as a bit blasé for some and I probably badly explained my system. I now use the contemporary administrative county but add back in the county boroughs and the counties of themselves (so Bristol is added back into Gloucestershire - indeed, Gloucester is added back into Gloucestershire.) It's only when I get to unitary authorities that things really start to change.

With that scheme, I am reasonably confident of easily finding so-called counties. I'd be less confident were I treating county boroughs as counties.

[David Potter]

Hi Adrian

Your knowledge on the subject far surpasses mine. And you make some interesting and valid points about what does the Source say! EG, A birth certificate I have states the birth occurred in the County of Gloucester and Worcestershire. How would you deal with that? Looking for inspiration.

Many thanks

[ColeValleyGirl]

I'd document it exactly as the source says but geocode the place so that they current location is obvious.

[David Potter]

Hi Helen

Yes I can see that makes sense. When you say current place, according to what? Wiki, Google maps, Genuki?

[ColeValleyGirl]

I use Google maps to get latitude and longitude, then code the place with that in FH. You can also add a standardised verion of a place, so your facts use the place as recorded at the time, but there's a 'modern place' associated with it as well.

[David Potter]

Hi Helen

Yes - got it. Thank you very much.

[AdrianBruce]

I'm not sure where to check this, but I would suspect that the "County of Gloucester and Worcestershire" might well be a Registration County. Yet another sort. Certainly when I just checked Wikipedia, the Gloucestershire article had no mention of G&W and if it had been an administrative county, I'd have expected it to be mentioned there.

I know that Hereford and Worcestershire was a disliked post 1974 administrative county.

Yes, you can record G&W as Helen suggests. My own inclination would be to enter the contemporary sort of administrative county and I'd find that by consulting Wikipedia for the nearest place with such an entry. Or GENUKI might help with the counties over time, though that seems to vary in effectiveness (whoever does my local county of Cheshire does an excellent job).

As an incidental, my own current issue is with the subdivisions of Bristol. I've got 3 different suburbs for the same address over time and I think that I may have ignored at least one other! Using the data from the source is the only viable option but it does lead to volatility.

[David Potter]

Thank you all for the invaluable tips on how best handle this subject. I now need to decide how best to implement. Broadly speaking I do find the nearest current place using Google Maps and record that as the Place. It is the Source records I think I will need to revisit once again.

Still looking for that elusive Mapping software solution if it exists. I'll continue my search for this as well.

[mjashby]

David,

I fear the search for the 'perfect' historical' mapping program may continue to prove elusive, but here's a few suggestions you might want to check out to see if any provide at least some of the features you are looking for (unless you are already aware of them).

GenMap UK: http://www.archersoftware.co.uk/genmap01.htm
As the name implies this is UK only; and IMHO relatively expensive at £29.95 based on the fact it covers a limited geography, doesn't do geo-coding; and doesn't seem to have had any significant updates since 2002, other than ensuring compatibility with Windows 8 & 10. No trial version available, but there some examples of the output possible here http://www.archersoftware.co.uk/genmap03.htm and here http://www.archersoftware.co.uk/genmap04.htm.

Family Atlas: http://www.rootsmagic.com/Family-Atlas/
This is a RootsMagic product but is not limited to working with RootsMagic data. Rather than working purely with online geocoding sites, Family Atlas uses the same locally installed Places datafile that RootsMagic uses; and that database includes Geo Codes and does relate place names to timeframes, e.g. will produce a warning if United Kingdom is used before the United Kingdom actually existed. No trial version available, but there is link to a video tutorial.

Map My Family Tree: http://progenygenealogy.com/Products/Family-Maps
Will work directly with Family Historian Files. No trial version, but you can download the User Manual (without purchasing the software) from: http://progenygenealogy.com/Downloads/F ... User-Guide

GenMap UK and Family Atlas can also be purchased from S&N Genealogy Supplies: https://genealogysupplies.com/product/W ... ware/intro

Mervyn

[tatewise]

David, it is not clear from your postings that you realise that each Place record has two Place names.
The one displayed in Facts, Reports, etc, is usually the one recorded in the Source document.
The Standardised field is the modern equivalent used by both the FH Mapping and the Map Life Facts Plugin in order to obtain Lat/Longitude from current mapping tools.

[trevorrix]

http://maps.familysearch.org is your answer. Be sure to investigate all of the layers and facilities. I can't praise this website provided free by FamilySearch highly enough. Truly excellent - and I don't pin that label on many things.

[colinmoretti]

If you have access to GIS (Geographic Information System) software you can import both registration and administrative county boundaries for a number of different dates as shape files from the Vision of Britain website (http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/data/#). Data for the other boundaries (borough, parish, etc) are not, unfortunately, generally available.

If GIS means nothing to you and you are feeling adventurous you can install the free QGIS program (see http://www.qgis.org/en/site/about/index.html for more information). There's a steep learning curve but if you are interested in maps and mapping you will find that there is a lot you can do once you've mastered the program. In the context of the question you can download Open Street Map for the area you are interested in and superimpose the various county boundaries as supplied by Vision of Britain.

The other site that might be helpful although it doesn't specifically track the boundary changes is the National Library of Scotland which has a range of historic Ordnance Survey maps freely available to view (http://maps.nls.uk/). Not surprisingly most of the maps are for places in Scotland but it has many OS maps for England and Wales too, usually a number of editions in each series for any given place.

I hope that helps

[David Potter]

Wow, thank you all so much for the assistance and suggestions. So much feedback and lots of nice tools to test out and play around with.

Very much appreciated.

[David Potter]

Hi Mike thanks for the tip about the Place feature. Allowing both Source place and True place to be recorded. I had overlooked that possibility.

[David Potter]

@ Mike

Having entered a Standardized Place value. And choosing the option to display the Place using 'View in Map Window' - The FH Mapping software uses the Primary Place and not the Standardized Place value and fails to find it! However, if the choose 'View in Online Map' then the Standardized Place value is used. Confusing to say the least. Is this working correctly or is there a setting somewhere I need to change. See attached.

Many thanks.

[tatewise]

That does not sound sensible, but there are no settings involved.
Let me investigate.

[David Potter]

Hi Mike you can use the example in the screen shots. You should find that the FH Mapping api will use the Primary Place and fail to locate it. It presents a ? once loaded.

Thanks for your help.

[tatewise]

With these issues you need to compare 'with' and 'without' scenarios.
e.g. In this case, with and without Standardized place values.

These examples apply without initial Lat/Longitude values in the Place record.

In both cases View in Online Map uses the correct place and auto-geocodes the Lat/Longitude in Google Maps.

In both cases View in Map Window does NOT auto-geocode and just shows a ? because it has no Lat/Longitude values.
You must select any un-geocoded ? places and right-click to use Geocoding > Refresh Geocoding.
Then the correct place is used to obtain Lat/Longitude values.

So the behaviour is quite consistent, although perhaps not exactly what you expected.

[David Potter]

Hi Mike

I followed your instructions and now it maps correctly. But I'm still a little confused...

What part of the Place is it using to create the Geocode data? The Primary Place (Pontfathew) cannot be found using any Mapping solutions. So does it therefore use the Standardized Place (Bryncrug) to get the Geocodes and then use these Geocodes in the FH Mapping but showing Pontfathew as the searched for Place?

Many thanks.

[David Potter]

Hi Mike

I used the same technique to update another Place - see the screen shots. The view online Maps initially correctly showed the Place name using the Standardized place details I would guess. I then went into the view in FH Mapping and it showed the Question mark. I refreshed the Geocoding and it found Cwmcarn, Monmouthshire, Wales in Sheffield!?

I then went back to the View online Map and because the Geocoding is wrong that ignores the Standardized Place and now also shows Cwmcarn in Sheffield?

Any ideas how to solve this other than when this occurs; a) not using the FH Mapping and b) not using Geocoding which obviously I would prefer not to do.

David

[Jane]

Auto Geocoding can only be a best guess and not always accurate. If places are coded wrong simply turn on Marker dragging and put them in the right place, unless you have lot's of Projects you only need to do this once for each place.

[tatewise]

The primary Place name is what will always be shown everywhere, regardless of any mapping.
That is the historical name obtained from Source documents that you want displayed.

If that historical Place name does not auto-geocode then you can add a modern Standardized name to assist the geocoder, but the record Place name will still be shown everywhere, and if mapped correctly will be positioned on the map correctly.

The main snag with the FH internal auto-geocoder is that it is not very good, even with modern place names.
This is a well know deficiency.
It is actually finding Cwmcarn, Monmouthshire/Gwent, Wales in a little village called Wales near but NOT in Sheffield.
You need to zoom in closely to inspect exactly where the mapping is located.

As Jane says, you can manually override the FH auto-geocoding and plot the Lat/Longitude correctly, but read on...

You have no doubt discovered that View in Online Map via Google Maps is much better at geocoding.
Thus the best workaround is to use the Map Life Facts Plugin, that auto-geocodes using Google Maps.
It can be synchronised with your FH Place records to automatically update the Lat/Longitude values.
It correctly maps both Cwmcarn, Gwent, Wales and Bryncrug, Gwynedd, Wales.
See plugins:help:map_life_facts:map_life_facts|> Map Life Facts Plugin and plugins:help:map_life_facts:the_faq#how_can_v6_place_records_be_synchronised_with_plugin_locations|> How can V6 Place Records be synchronised with Plugin Locations?

[David Potter]

Hi Jane/Mike

Thank you both for your suggestions and honesty. I didn't realise just how poor the FH Mapping Geocoding is. I will follow your workaround suggestions.

Many thanks.