* TMG UK Census Fact Definition

[tatewise]

Also when some or all the residents are not related you cannot apply consanguinity.
The only generic solution that fits all cases is to treat each person as experiencing a Census Event and everyone at the same address to share a common Source Citation.

John you mention "one single piece of paper which is the record of the Census Event".
However, one Household is not recorded on a single piece of paper.
The Household is only part of a page, or can in fact span multiple pages.
So if you extrapolate the argument, there is only one Census Event for the whole country, and everyone is a Witness to a solitary event allocated to one poor soul such as the Registrar General.

However, joking apart, I see the attraction of one Head of Household Census Event and Witnesses.
I might find time to look at adapting the Lookup Missing Census Facts Plugin to accommodate that strategy.

[tatewise]

Belatedly and apologetically (because I forgot about it) the Give Witnesses Their Own Facts Plugin has been updated to Version 1.2 in the Plugin Store and now only gives one Fact to each Individual regardless of how many times they appear as Principal or Fact Witness in the original Fact. This avoids the duplicated Facts identified by John Senelstune in January.

Where there are such multiple Roles, then each Role is listed in the Note of the new Fact.

This new Plugin version also ensures any Source Citations on the Fact Witness Roles migrate to the new Facts.

BTW: This Plugin now supports Census (family) events and gives each Fact Witness their own Census Event.

[E Wilcock]

I am adding to this thread as some of the answers given by Mike may be relevant, e.g. on 21 Jan 2017 12:06

Tho I did not fully understand.

I have been using fh for a Place study but am still gradually importing (opening) my TMG family projects and therefore still coming across problems as I do things for the first time.
I was asked by one of his descendants for a full descendants report for a particular man. The default is a narrative report and that report reveals trouble with Census entries.
My method of census data entry was devised before I used TMG, copying handwritten transcripts made by my father from microfilm. I put a list of the household in the Note field for the event. And the file number and location in the source. On this tree the source is an individual household source (not lumped).
I did not enter the census for the children or anyone except the wife. However while using TMG I added household members in specified roles (witness roles) lost on import to fh.

I moved all my dated census tags to an undated census tags before the import and after import I used the plug in to give witnesses their own events.

The result is that the transcript of the census entry now appears mutiple times in any report. I had to go through the report in Word deleting these lists.
I have added the household list now to the source. But I would like to keep it in the note field for just the head of household.
His census field seems to be a family Fact (I am not familiar with this fh concept).
How can one edit family facts? If I delete the household from the wife's fact, will I lose it from his fact as well? added later Sorry Mike . Ihave now found your plug in and used this to Migrate family to individual events.

I have gone through the census entries in the report, re entering the household role (son , daughter etc). But has anyone found a way of preserving this info?

I have to work out what to do with further imports from TMG. I think now it was a mistake to give witnesses their own facts.
Some of my TMG censuses have lumped sources.
That means that the household list will have to be pasted into the local citation (not the source record). Does that mean I will have to paste it in separately for every single household member?

I am really at my wits end knowing what to do about Census import -
And it is made even worse by my inability to search the forum for information other ex-TMG users may have supplied here.

I dont want to engage in discussion of how GEDCOM handles censuses. I just want my info to come across as well as possible and to be able then to give reports that avoid repeating long sections of the same data.

[tatewise]

OK, there are several issues to discuss.

1. You say specified Witness Roles are lost on import to FH, but I thought they were preserved.
   So presumably, prior to using the Plugins, the Witness Role just says Witness?
   i.e. For a Census (family) event, when you display the Witnesses dialogue, the Role column just says Witness.
   
   When using Give Witnesses Their Own Facts what Witness Roles are listed against Census (family)?
2. Family facts such as Census (family), Marriage, Divorce.
   These are held once in the Family record associated with and shared by the two spouse Individual records.
   Such facts have a red bullet on their left in the Facts tab of the Property Box.
   The fact can be edited in the Family record, or either Individual record, but the change will appear in all three places.
   (BTW: You can see the Family record by clicking on the dark blue bar below the spouses in the Focus Window.)
   
   However, now you have used Migrate Census Family to Individual Events to migrate to Individual Census events, they can be edited separately.
3. Preserving household role (son, daughter, etc.)
   This Census Household relationship can be preserved in various places:-
   The Census Source record for 'splitters' usually holds a transcript & image of the Census entry, and thus includes the Relation to Head of Family column.
   The Citation Text From Source transcript can hold the same for 'lumpers' but must be duplicated in each Citation.
   The relationship for each person can be added to the Note of each Census Event, and when Give Witnesses Their Own Facts is used it should create such a labelled Note automatically based on the Witness Role.
   In Narrative Reports the Source Citation transcript can be included in the Sources section, and the labelled Note can be incorporated into the Sentence Template as explained in how_to:narrative_report_fact_sentence_templates|> Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates under Custom Fact Fields and we can discuss how in more detail later.
4. What to do about Census import from TMG.
   For 'split' Sources it seems the above approaches will work well.
   For 'lumped' Sources it is less satisfactory, but how many Census Households does that affect?
   If it is comparatively few, then maybe the least amount of effort would be to use Ancestral Sources to enter them from scratch, and delete the original 'lumped' Sources and Census (family) facts, before using the Plugins on the rest.

[E Wilcock]

Mike. Once again I very much appreciate your time and patience spent helping me.
I am in this dreadful position where I can no longer use TMG easilly -so bring more and more into fh which I either havent mastered or (being in my late 70s) have already forgotten what I did last time and cant re-locate the advice.

Since I have now used two plug ins (give witnesses their own events and migrate family events to individual events), I would need to do a new trial import to give exact answers. Which I can do at some point.
On the project which provoked this discussion, the one from which I did a descendants report from one person, I edited and entered the role for each census.
But looking at another branch of the family, I see that
"Witness Role: Witness"
is in the note for the Census event of one daughter.

So I thought to check the same file back in TMG. When I opened it in TMG I see to my dismay that I have witness for the role there too.
What I dont know is whether it has always been thus or whether moving the dated UK census facts to undated (using John Cardinal's TMG Utility), meant I lost the witness roles. It would seem very strange to lose all witness roles throughout a project.

Looking at the TMG file of an earlier file I imported into fh and with which I dont recall this problem, I see it still has dated census fields in TMG and the roles are all there. I assume this is a tree on which I used your plug in to move the dated Census events to undated Census events after import.

But when I look at my husband's family tree in TMG , I can see that the same loss of data. It too now has undated USA census fields and all the roles are lost in TMG.
So possibly by user error I have lost the roles before import. John does warn one repeatedly to make a back up before using his Utility.
Of course I should have checked.
The info I am getting from you is that TMG users of the UK version should open the file in fh and one can then make all the alterations in fh after import. Then roles will come in as notes. Is this correct?

As for the two Projects with which I have lost the roles, new data has been added in fh and I shall have to go through correcting the entries. And to reassure you, I do have back ups in TMG but it could be that in preparing to move and removing UK census fields, I have already affected Projects not yet imported.
Just wont have much time at a computer for the next two or three weeks.

Since censuses went on line most of my sources have been lumped.
However my feeling is that if the Head of house John Brown has an event that includes a note giving his household entry, and all other members of that household have a note saying that the were listed in the household of John Brown, people should be able to refer back to the main entry.

[E Wilcock]

I can now see why this happened. Since I never used witness roles for my USA census entry in TMG, I never created the specific (custom) roles for that undated census TAG.
John's Utility was therefore unable to preserve the roles when it moved my data.
I feel a bit like a canary down a coal mine - that my floundering around stumbles across things that go wrong which more accomplished computer users would have dealt with.
Since fh is a UK authored program there could be a special warning abut this? May be there is but I didnt see it.

[tatewise]

Maybe you need to keep Aide Memoir notes in your PC or a log book, to record repeated processes (I do).

I suspect in TMG (just like FH) that witness Roles are associated with specific Tags/Facts.
So when you use John Cardinal's utility that changes the Census Tag perhaps the Roles get lost then.
BTW:
The TMG UK Census tags are non-standard tags, and what you call USA Census is the Standard GEDCOM multinational Census tag.
I don't understand why you think FH should give any special warning about a problem in TMG.
The how_to:import_from_tmg#correcting_problems|> Import from The Master Genealogist (TMG) > Correcting Problems explains how to deal with those TMG special UK Census tags.

However, you are where you are, and it seems those changes cannot be undone, because you have added data into the FH Projects.
The only way forward is to manually edit each Witness Role: Witness labelled Note to say Witness Role: Wife or Witness Role: Son, etc, as necessary.

For TMG Projects that have not yet applied John Cardinal's utility it may be best to import them into FH as they are.
That should preserve the Witness Roles and the FH Change Any Fact Tag Plugin can convert them to standard Census tags, which will also preserve the Witness Roles.
Then the Give Witnesses Their Own Facts and Migrate Census Family to Individual Events will produce the correct Witness Role: ... labelled Notes that you desire.

[E Wilcock]

Maybe you need to keep Aide Memoir notes in your PC or a log book, to record repeated processes (I do)..

I have two MS Word documents. One holds much of the clear simple guidance you and one or two others have given me on this forum on how to carry out the tasks I have needed. The other document lists the actions to take before and after moving a project from TMG to fh. But I also look at the FAQ.

I found the use of a plug to change an event type confusing - as the words baptism appear on the screen. So altered my behaviour to change the tag types with TMG before the move. I had a few other Tag type changes to do to get rid of non Gedcom tags. Particularly dated notes. And as I remember the recommendation was to deal with that before moving a Project.

I don't understand why you think FH should give any special warning about a problem in TMG..

The how_to:import_from_tmg#correcting_problems|> Import from The Master Genealogist (TMG) > Correcting Problems explains how to deal with those TMG special UK Census tags.

I did go to the Knowledge base and the FAQ. And there is a reference back to a forum thread. All involving pages of detail. Nowhere is there a simple one two three instruction about witness roles and how to move them from TMG to fh.
The amount of help and advice - often very complex - offered by fh is one of its weaknesses.

For TMG Projects that have not yet applied John Cardinal's utility it may be best to import them into FH as they are.
That should preserve the Witness Roles and the FH Change Any Fact Tag Plugin can convert them to standard Census tags, which will also preserve the Witness Roles.
Then the Give Witnesses Their Own Facts and Migrate Census Family to Individual Events will produce the correct Witness Role: ... labelled Notes that you desire.

It isnt that it may be best to do it after import. I would stress that it is essential. And then to run the two plug ins in the order you suggest. I dont expect fh to give guidance on TMG -but this is vital. To tell new users to arrange things after import and using plug ins.

When I started to use fh I didnt even realise there was a witness role problem. There were several things I didnt realise.

Yes, I will need to remedy this. And have already done it for the current project. I used witness roles for censuses rather late in my research and often I left in the original Census event - either accidentally or on purpose creating the duplicated census events fh users are trying to avoid. In fh many of the instances where I have Witness role:Witness, that is preceded in the fh note field by my habitual transcription of the census household which provides the original roles.
I have done no editing in TMG since last November so should have back ups of versions using the UK dated Census events with witness roles intact..

[tatewise]

how_to:import_from_tmg#correcting_problems|> Import from The Master Genealogist (TMG) > Correcting Problems suggests changing the UK Census exported tags in TMG using Tools > Master Tag Type List rather than John Cardinal's utility, and that should preserve the Witness Roles and produce standard Census events, but can you please check that is the case for direct import to FH.

BTW: I am not sure where the advice to use John Cardinal's utility comes from, because as far as I can tell, that is not mentioned anywhere in the FHUG in the context of TMG UK Census tags.

The Change Any Fact Tag Plugin does have predefined buttons to convert Christening to Baptism and vice versa, but as its Help & Advice explains, it can convert ANY Fact Tag. However, If the above TMG change works, then this Plugin is not needed.

There is no special advice about how to move Witness Roles from TMG into FH, because that happens automatically. As you explained earlier, your problem is that the Witness Roles were upset in TMG beforehand by using John Cardinal's utility, and that is not an FH import issue.

[E Wilcock]

how_to:import_from_tmg#correcting_problems|> Import from The Master Genealogist (TMG) > Correcting Problems suggests changing the UK Census exported tags in TMG using Tools > Master Tag Type List rather than John Cardinal's utility, and that should preserve the Witness Roles and produce standard Census events, but can you please check that is the case for direct import to FH.

I had a look at the TMG Tools menu - Sorry - I dont know how to do this. Tho being able to change an individual Tag type in a record whenever one wanted was a feature of TMG that I really miss in fh.
And one would not find advice to use the TMG utility. It was like a plug in - free 3rd party software (donations to charity) designed to help TMG users. Which in its time it did.

I have now either corrected or deleted the faulty projects in fh and also restored my TMG projects from my back ups in TMG. So eventually I can reimport them into fh. And I can easily use your plug in now.
At least I have my own imported Projects sorted out and thanks for your help in dong that.

[tatewise]

Evelyn, in TMG use Tools > Master Tag Type List.
On the left select each UK Census year tag in turn (I suspect the GEDCOM box in middle says EVEN for each one).
Click Edit on the right to open the Tag Type Definition dialogue (similar to Tools > Fact Types in FH).
On the Other tab ensure GEDCOM export as : has Tag set to CENS instead of EVEN.
i.e.
The same as the KB says:
"To change these in TMG use Tools > Master Tag Type List, select the event tag name, click Edit and on the Other tab set GEDCOM export as Tag: CENS"

[E Wilcock]

Thanks Mike - I just wrote a reply with further questions which I lost when a link failed as I tried to post it.
Dont have time to repeat the whole. So briefly -

Correcting Projects already imported has persuaded me to keep witnesses where I already have them and to create their roles in fh.

However, there is a warning that due to GEDCOM custom census Witness roles wont re-export from fh.
Since they exported from TMG to any software that could a handle witnesses, can this really be so?

If one creates census witness roles in fh and handles Censuses as one did in TMG, is there any way of getting a meaningful sentence on the Facts tab instead of "{individual} was a {role name} at {label} of {principal} {date} {place}"?

[AnneEast]

Evelyn, just a quick hint as regards your first paragraph. If you think you will be writing a long query or comment on a forum its easier to do it in Word, Notepad or somesuch and then copy and paste the full thing into the forum. Saves the frustration of losing all that typing if the internet lets you down at the cruicial moment.
Anne

[tatewise]

Evelyn, you are of course free to use whatever recording strategy you wish, but do you remember the reasons why we started on the journey, many of which are explained in how_to:recording_census_records|> Recording from a Census Record.

1. Are you still planning to convert from TMG UK Census facts to standard GEDCOM Census Events?
2. Are you planning to use Individual Census Events or Family Census (family) Events?
3. How do you record unmarried persons with Census relationship of Servant, Lodger, Inmate, etc, where Head of household is not in your database?
4. You cannot use Lookup Missing Census Facts Plugin to research new Census records if you use Witness Roles.
5. You cannot use Ancestral Sources to capture new Census record with Witness Roles.
6. There is nowhere to record the Age of Witness Role persons as recorded on the Census record.
7. Witness Role persons do NOT appear in Diagrams or Reports (except Narrative Reports).

Witness Roles employ a non-standard GEDCOM structure not recognised by most other products.
Of the 20+ products I have investigated, only Gedsite, Legacy, RootsMagic & TNG support Witness Roles.
Even those do NOT recognise the Name Only Witness Roles option.
The Witness Roles non-standard structure DOES export from FH but does NOT import to products other than those four, and that is what the warning is all about, just as you say it only works for products that can "handle witnesses".

Regarding Witness Role sentence Templates I thought that was resolved in Census Events imported from TMG (15000).
Please give some examples of what you consider a "meaningful sentence" for various Witness Roles.

[E Wilcock]

Mike - I am not planning to add census witnesses in future. But this is the third time I have been obliged to change software and I just dont have time to go back and re-enter data that has already been entered.
So what I am looking at now is how fh presents Census witness roles on the computer screen. And I dont like it at all.

In Reports you get the coding interpreted and it has the correct sentence. Similarly if you look at it via the parent's Witness box. "She was a daughter at the Census (family) of John Brown and Mary Smith on 2 April 1871 in 47 Fellows Road, Hampstead, London

But on the Facts tab of the Property Box you see only the code:
{individual} was a {role name} at {label} of {principal} {date} {place}

The main workspace in TMG was a biographical page listing all the life Events for a person. The equivalent in RM is the Timeline view and in fh the Property box.
So using the Property Box Facts Tab to look down the life of a person is important to me. Many people have two or even three censuses in the household of their father or mother. I really dont want to see only coding there.

Now this may be my error or it may not be. I dont know.

[tatewise]

Nothing we have discussed involves re-entering data.
The technique for adjusting the TMG UK Census to standard Census should avoid disrupting the Witness Roles.
The problem that caused the loss of Witness Roles was your use of John Cardinal's utility.
BUT that is another story, and we had nearly reached the conclusion.

Now the Witness Roles timeline sentence problem is I think a typo in your templates somewhere.

It is not exactly clear where the problem appears - a screenshot would save an awful lot of time.

I suspect you are talking about the list of Facts at the top of the Facts tab rather than the Sentence box at the bottom.
Please clarify and also provide the templates for the Census (family) fact Roles.
Both the Witness Sentence Template and also the Advanced Override Template.

[E Wilcock]

These images come from a TMG file imported into fh with no missing roles.
I moved the dated UK census fields to census after arrival in fh, using your plug in but as far as I know did not use the other two plug ins to get rid of family facts or witnesses.

Fact tab.JPG (42.07 KiB) Viewed 12484 times

I am not good at doing this snipping.
At the bottom of the page, the sentence is correct. But the line just above the date field is code. I will try to snip and post that.


Mike I am extremely grateful for your help over this but for family reasons need to postpone further communication for a couple of weeks.

[tatewise]

There is something unusual about the Override Template.
Please post what is in Tools > Fact Types > Census (family) > Edit > Roles > Daughter > Edit > Advanced > Template

I have tried listed as {role name} {label} of {principal} but that produces:
Listed as Daughter Census (family) of Joseph Leopold ROSENHEIM and Johanna HEIM
whereas yours produces:
listed as {role name} Census (family) of Joseph ROSENHEIM
so I suspect you have some cunning code to obtain just the male partner that upsets the {role name} code.

[E Wilcock]

Mike - I am now back with a computer and internet.
Under edit f role for Census family I have Role name: son
Past tense :{individual} was a {role name} at {label} of {principal} {date} {place}
Witness census template:{individual} was a {role name} at {label} of {principal} {date} {place}

For daughter. I have: listed as {role name}

The other witness roles have only the name of the role.
What should one see here?

[tatewise]

Sorry Evelyn, but you are not providing the template I need to see.
It is the Override Template for Facts tab listings via the Advanced button for the Daughter role:
Tools > Fact Types > Census (family) > Edit > Roles > Daughter > Edit > Advanced > Template

I do NOT need to see the Witness Sentence Template.

BTW: Past Tense should NOT have template codes, but just the word Daughter or Son.

[E Wilcock]

Edit role screen for daughter has noting at all entered. Neither in the template field nor the override. If I click installations settings, both remain blank.
The two fields are blank for son too. And wife. Possibly for all roles.

[E Wilcock]

Mike - I think that altering the past tense has sorted it out - That person's record on the Facts Tab anyway.
The note remains the note of the principal person (Head of household). But that seems OK to me.

[tatewise]

Sorry Evelyn, it is NOT possible to have a Role screen for Daughter with no Templates. Please post a screen shot like this:

DaughterRole.png (41.36 KiB) Viewed 12354 times

[E Wilcock]

It took me time to work out how to do this snip but here it is.
On the equivalent of your first view, the sentence reads:
{couple} appeared in the census {date} {place} {their ages} {note}

I believe this is correct as in TMG no roles were assigned to the couple - I never marked the woman as being wife. Man and wife just shared the Event tag.

On the next two shots you post, mine are the same.

But the last (bottom) screen you show Edit role - Advanced features, currently has nothing in those two boxes, the over ride box is not ticked and nothing shows in the bigger box either.
Do you want me to tick the over ride box?
If I did , some text might appear.

However, as a post script, this is not the whole story. My Census event standard appears to have a sentence relating only to the 1939 Register. . In TMG one did not have these family events, so I have probably made some error somewhere.

[tatewise]

Regarding your postscript you have made no error.
As illustrated in your much earlier screenshot on Tue Jul 25 your TMG Census shared tags import into FH as a Census (family) couple event, and always have done for as long as we have discussed such matters.
That is what it says in how_to:import_from_tmg#import_guide|> Import from The Master Genealogist (TMG) > Import Guide:-
"Every Tag with 2 Principal Persons as parents becomes a Family Fact (Event/Attribute) e.g. Marriage"
(or in the current context Census (family))

That earlier screenshot was for the Role of daughter and said listed as {role name} Census (family) of Joseph ROSENHEIM.
That {role name} code was the problem you wanted to be investigated particularly for the Role of daughter.

So as requested, can you please post a screenshot (just like the one for son) but specifically for the Role of daughter.

BTW:
1) Do NOT tick the Override Template option.
2) The Census template adjustment for 1939 Register will need to be made to the Census (family) template in due course, if you are going to persevere in using them.