* Certificates

[DBAMorse]

Hello all,
I'm hoping that someone will be able to help me. I've been given some poor and faded photocopies of some birth, marriage and death certificates for some ancestors but would like to obtain my own (and better) copies. The problem is that the individuals cannot be found when I search via Find My Past BMD records. How then can I get a GRO number to request the copies or is there any other route to consider? Perhaps I should add that these were Welsh certificates from around 1860. Any help appreciated.
Derek

[tatewise]

GRO records for England and Wales were always combined from 1837, so that is not a problem.

Check the research:useful_research_web_sites|> Useful Research Web Sites especially FreeBMD as well as FMP and Ancestry, all of which you can search for free.

Are you sure you have interpreted the names correctly? Perhaps post some Certificate images. Are you sure they are genuine GRO certificates?

[LornaCraig]

If they are copies of genuine GRO certificates they will show the name of the Registration District, and the 'When Registered' column will give you a date from which you will know which quarter year the registration tok place. (In the case of marriage certs it will normally be the 'When Married' date, but for births and deaths the registration may have been in a later quarter than the event.) This should give you all the information you need to order the certificate.

If what you have are copies of certificates issued by a local registrar there may have been some transcription errors introduced when the information was sent to the GRO, but you may be able to obtain duplicates from the appropriate local Register Office.

[DBAMorse]

Hello all and apologies for a very late response to your help so far. Just to say that builders had to be called in to help with water damage (humidifiers going all day and night - not much fun). However, I digress. As suggested I attach the best copy of one of the certificates I've been given. Just to re-cap I would like to order better copies but, so far, I am unable to locate any of them via Find My Past.

Any further help so much appreciated, and again apologies for the late reply.

[arthurk]

It's up to you, but making a more readable copy of the image you've given here is relatively easy with a free graphics/image editor, such as those mentioned in fhugdownloads:graphics|Downloads and Links ~ Graphics Packages

I used to mostly use IrfanView for this kind of thing, but I now prefer many of the tools in FastStone Image Viewer (despite its name, it's an editor too).

If you do decide to get fresh copies, the one you've given is in the GRO index for Mar qtr 1860, Carmarthen district, ref 11a 656. Or you can order from a local registrar - see http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/dist ... rthen.html for details of the historic Carmarthen district and the current whereabouts of the registers.

Arthur

[LornaCraig]

This looks like the one (details from FMP):

First name(s) WILLIAM
Last name LLEWELYN
Birth year 1860
Birth quarter 1
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District CARMARTHEN
County Carmarthenshire
Country Wales
Volume 11A
Page 656
Record set England & Wales births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

Note that although William was born December 1859 his birth was not registered until Jan 1860, as shown on the certificate copy you have.

This was found immediately on FMP by entering the name William, surname Llewelyn, birth year 1860+/-1, and Carmarthen in the field next to Britain

[tatewise]

Perhaps it would help us to help you, if you explained where you are going wrong in searching FMP, as it seems quite easy to find your example details.

Even without entering CARMARTHEN there were only 10 results to review as long as you chose the England & Wales Births 1837-2006 Record Set, and only one of those results mentions CARMARTHEN so must be the one that goes with your Certificate.

[AnneEast]

You can use FreeBMD with the same result and no subscription charge.

I must say, though, that the copy you have looks better than some I have bought from the GRO. They tend to use a photocopied strip unless the original is very poor. However some of mine are abysmal and make me wonder what they consider 'poor'.

Ah! I see the certificate was issued in 2005, so a new copy may also be hand written.
Anne

[tatewise]

I have copied the posted Birth Certificate image and pasted it into fhugdownloads:contents:irfanview|> Utility ~ IrfanView then used its Image > Auto adjust colours command, and the resulting image shown below looks OK, but could probably be improved with a little manual editing. So save your money and install IrfanView for free to improve your faded images. (Other image editors are available.)

scan0001.jpg (166.86 KiB) Viewed 10856 times

[DBAMorse]

My grateful thanks to all.
Ok, here goes...indeed there are listings for William Llewelyn (one L) from Carmarthen, but the names of the parents are not correct. So, a search with Llewellyn (two Ls) is still not fruitful. Search including the mother's maiden name (Evans) still produces nothing. Even where the mother's maiden name is not listed, the birth quarter is also not correct.
I fear I may have to live with the copies I have and improve them as per Tatewise's suggestion. I do foresee that going further back may be even harder now. But thank you all for your time and suggestions.

[tatewise]

I do not understand where you are getting the names of the parents.
The search shows a GRO Index Page and in 1860 not even the mother's maiden name is included, and the forenames of neither parent are shown even in modern GRO Index entries.
So unless you order the Birth Certificate using that GRO Index reference you cannot discover full parent names online from any BMD GRO Index entries. Only online Census Records (and perhaps a few others) are likely to give such family relationships.

[mjashby]

Derek,

I'm not clear why you believe the information on the copy Certificate you have is 'wrong', but presumably you have some conflicting evidence as to William Llewellyn's date of birth and/or parentage. Perhaps if you could give a bit more information about the conflicting information you have I, or someone else, may be able help track down some alternative possibilities. By the way, there is no point including the Mother's Maiden Name in GRO Index Searches prior to 1911, because they weren't included in the Indexes. You might find it easier to use the search facility on FreeBMD (http://www.freebmd.org.uk) rather than the FMP Site for GRO Indexes, as it allows a wider range of search option, e.g. phonetic searching on Surnames; which reveals some other possibilities in the same time-frame, including:

June Quarter 1860: LLEWHELLYN William Narberth 11a 697 (Narberth spans the boundaries of Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire)

The copy Certificate you currently have was produced at the local Registrar's Office and not from the GRO, so it may be more, or less reliable than the GRO's indexed information, i.e. it could be more accurate if copied from a good (clearly legible) original copy, or less accurate if badly copied. I've seen examples both ways, but these are usually down to misinterpretation of the original hand-written information.

Welsh Family History can, of course, be particularly problematic. I'm also stuck on one line just prior to the start of Civil Registration, when John Hughes married Jane Jones!

Mervyn

[LornaCraig]

Derek wrote:

Even where the mother's maiden name is not listed, the birth quarter is also not correct.

As Mervyn has explained, the mother's maiden name was not included in the GRO birth index until 1911.
And as I explained in my reply above, it is important to understand that although the birth took place in the 4th quarter of 1859 it was not registered until the 1st quarter of 1860, as shown clearly on the copy certificate you have. So the entry we have pointed you to above is almost certainly the right one.

Mervyn,
I don't think Derek is saying the information on the copy certificate he has is wrong. He wants to get a better copy but for some reason thinks the entry we have found for him in the GRO index does not match the copy he has, although in fact it does match.

[DBAMorse]

Gosh!! Thanks to you all. I hadn't taken on board the point that parents names were not included until 1911. However, I do know William Llewellyn's parents names via other family members informing me (a copy of a very old photograph exists that others were able to name the people in it) plus I have been able to order Williams marriage certificate, which helped somewhat. I've looked again at the listings on FMP and I guess I was getting confused, as some of the transcriptions for some Llewellyn's listed for that period, do have information about father's first and surname and mothers first name and I'm also thinking that the error I'm making may indeed be down to the region in Wales I'm looking at, as well as confusion over the date of registration. It is looking like the entry Lorna has pointed to may be the correct one. Once again my grateful thanks to you all. I'll let you know how I get on and I'll certainly look in to freebmd.org.uk
Derek

[Jane]

You might find a look through the Slides I did years ago about Civil Registration, see

research:course:dillington_course_notes|Dillington Course Notes and select item 3.

[DBAMorse]

Looks good, thanks Jane.
Will definitely work my way through them.

[DBAMorse]

Just a line to reinforce my grateful thanks to all who helped me track down the correct BMD entry. I have today received a copy of the required certificate and can now find and order other needed certificates to move my research on. Thanks again,
Derek