* Ancestry

[saban]

Hello to all

I have been given several certificates all of which seem to be computer printouts. The person who gave them to me does not know where they originated from but believes that they come from Ancestry. As a result I got onto Ancestry and paid my subscription as the certificate information was just what I needed without going to GRO and paying Circ £10.
The Cert heading, in Olive Green Says, England & Wales Free BMD Birth index, 1837-1915 and then quotes the name That I am interested in (Frank Saban).
Down the Left hand side it shows: Name; Year of registration; Qtr of Registration; District and other useful information. On the Right Hand side it shows a small image of the GRO index with the words View image.
I went into Ancestry and keyed in Frank's details, clicked on the tab user print friendly and printed the result.
What I got from the computer was all the information , but in smaller print with added comments of source information.
What can I do please to get a copy similarly to the one given me ? Thank you
Ron

[Jane]

Those are simply the details from the GRO index. They do not include all the information on a full certificate, I would guess what you have are just prints of the ancestry page, probably just from an earlier version of the web site.

For GRO indexes, I simply record the information in the source, and don't bother with printed copies as the information is easily available from a variety of places including http://www.freebmd.org.uk (for free) and http://www.findmypast.co.uk as well as Ancestry

[gerrynuk]

Hello to all

I have been given several certificates all of which seem to be computer printouts. The person who gave them to me does not know where they originated from but believes that they come from Ancestry. As a result I got onto Ancestry and paid my subscription as the certificate information was just what I needed without going to GRO and paying Circ £10.
The Cert heading, in Olive Green Says, England & Wales Free BMD Birth index, 1837-1915 and then quotes the name That I am interested in (Frank Saban).
Down the Left hand side it shows: Name; Year of registration; Qtr of Registration; District and other useful information. On the Right Hand side it shows a small image of the GRO index with the words View image.
I went into Ancestry and keyed in Frank's details, clicked on the tab user print friendly and printed the result.
What I got from the computer was all the information , but in smaller print with added comments of source information.
What can I do please to get a copy similarly to the one given me ? Thank you
Ron

The information on a Birth, Marriage or Death Certificate for England and Wales is ONLY available from the GRO. If you wish to purchase the certificate - which, as you have seen, has lots more information on it than the Index - go to http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp
where you will pay £9.25. You will not be able to purchase them any cheaper.

[saban]

Thank you both, Jane and Gerry; What would us poor mortals do without your expertise?
Ron

[tatewise]

The only other possibility is fhugdownloads:contents:service_certificate_exchange|> Certificate Exchange, but the chances of finding the Certificate you want are low.

[BillH]

Ron,

If I understand correctly, what you wanted was to be able to get a print of the image of the index. To do that, click on View Image under the small image on the first page.

image1.jpg

Then in the upper right hand corner, click on Save and then Save to my Computer. Save the file to your computer and then you can print it out using your usual image viewer program.

I believe only the indices are available on Ancestry, not the actual documents.

Bill

[AnneEast]

It is possible to get images of marriage certificates on Ancestry and FindMyPast. These are images of the certificate in parish records and contain exactly the same information as a GRO certificate. I have saved many pounds in this way! Not all areas are available but Ancestry has much of London, for example.

It is not possible to get birth and death certificates in this way because they are not Parish Records.

Anne

[tatewise]

Ron, I believe you have FH V5, but could you please update your Profile to confirm that.
At the top of the web page click User Control Panel and select Profile on the left, then choose from the list against Family Historian at the bottom, and finally click Submit button.
Thanks.

[jmurphy]

I am confused.

Anne East said:

It is possible to get images of marriage certificates on Ancestry and FindMyPast. These are images of the certificate in parish records and contain exactly the same information as a GRO certificate. I have saved many pounds in this way! Not all areas are available but Ancestry has much of London, for example.

It is not possible to get birth and death certificates in this way because they are not Parish Records.

Perhaps I don't understand yet how the system works. I thought that the information about the event was recorded in a register, and if a certificate was required, a clerk produces a certificate by extracting the information from the register onto the appropriate form. If that is the case, there is no such thing as "a certificate in parish records", not in the same sense that one can view a US WWI or WII Draft registration card, which is the microfilmed image of a discrete document -- or for a UK example, the difference between a census taken before 1911, with sheets recording many families, and the 1911 census which was filled out by the householder themselves.

In any case, information on births and deaths, as well as marriages, were recorded by Parishes even after the introduction of national civil registration. I know this because I have copies of the parish register pages with birth and death records about members of my husband's family, which a kind person sent me from the Devon Records Office. One such entry in the parish death register clearly shows the death in 1902 of my husband's great-uncle, who died in the US, and gives the name and town of the cemetery in Massachusetts where he is buried.

The registers may not be viewable online, but there are certainly birth records and death records kept at the parish level. To say that birth and death records are "not parish records" doesn't make sense, and contradicts my (admittedly limited) experience.

In any case, statements about what records exist need to be qualified by what place and period is under discussion, since the rules for what records needed to be kept, and by whom, vary so much over time.

[Jane]

Jan,

It is not possible to get birth and death certificates in this way because they are not Parish Records.

The information recorded in Parish Records for Births and Deaths has always been Baptisms and Burials and therefore often does not contain the same information as formal GRO Birth and Deaths, which always contain the actual Birth Date and actual Death Date, of course pre 1837 (in England and Wales) there was no civil registration so all we have are the Parish Records which may or may not contain a death date and a birth date in addition to the Baptism and Burial dates.

[LornaCraig]

I thought that the information about the event was recorded in a register, and if a certificate was required, a clerk produces a certificate by extracting the information from the register onto the appropriate form. If that is the case, there is no such thing as "a certificate in parish records".

Yes, you are correct. A marriage certificate is a ‘Certified copy of an entry of Marriage’, where the entry being copied is either the original parish record or the entry at the GRO (which itself is a copy of the parish record).

I think Anne’s point was that for post-1937 marriage records (in England and Wales) if you have an image of the parish record you already have ALL the information, including names of witnesses, occupations and residences of bride and groom, names and occupations of their fathers.

As Jane says, parish baptism and burial records may or may not contain the date or birth/death. But they are unlikely to include other useful information, such as the address at which the birth/death occurred, the cause of death, the name and address of the informant who registered the birth/death, or the maiden name of the mother (in the case of births). A baptism may not even have taken place in the same town or village as the birth, because women sometimes went back to their parents’ home to give birth. Similarly a person may have died in one place and been buried in another. (The Devon record you mention is very unusual in this respect, in including details of the death and burial of someone who died in the US.)

[gerrynuk]

I am confused.

Anne East said:

It is possible to get images of marriage certificates on Ancestry and FindMyPast. These are images of the certificate in parish records and contain exactly the same information as a GRO certificate. I have saved many pounds in this way! Not all areas are available but Ancestry has much of London, for example.

It is not possible to get birth and death certificates in this way because they are not Parish Records.

Perhaps I don't understand yet how the system works. I thought that the information about the event was recorded in a register, and if a certificate was required, a clerk produces a certificate by extracting the information from the register onto the appropriate form. If that is the case, there is no such thing as "a certificate in parish records", not in the same sense that one can view a US WWI or WII Draft registration card, which is the microfilmed image of a discrete document -- or for a UK example, the difference between a census taken before 1911, with sheets recording many families, and the 1911 census which was filled out by the householder themselves.

In any case, information on births and deaths, as well as marriages, were recorded by Parishes even after the introduction of national civil registration. I know this because I have copies of the parish register pages with birth and death records about members of my husband's family, which a kind person sent me from the Devon Records Office. One such entry in the parish death register clearly shows the death in 1908 of my husband's great-uncle, who died in the US, and gives the name and town of the cemetery in Massachusetts where he is buried.

The registers may not be viewable online, but there are certainly birth records and death records kept at the parish level. To say that birth and death records are "not parish records" doesn't make sense, and contradicts my (admittedly limited) experience.

In any case, statements about what records exist need to be qualified by what place and period is under discussion, since the rules for what records needed to be kept, and by whom, vary so much over time.

Lorna beat me to it but, for what it is worth here is my reply:

Just to amplify what Jane has said, the system of Civil Registration started in 1837 and is quite separate from the (Church of England) Parish Registers. There is some overlap in that the Church of England Parish Marriage Registers after 1837 are basically the same as the Civil Registration registers so that if the parish marriage register is available online you will be able to save the cost of purchasing a Civil Registration Marriage Certificate. BUT if the marriage was at a Registry Office then the only way you can get the information is by purchasing the Certificate from either the Local Registrar's Office or GRO. (I acknowledge that you may find that people have posted copies of certificates online with their family trees and if you find a tree that has your ancestor on it you may be in luck!)

Moving on to Birth and Death certificates: these did not exist before 1837 and, except for those posted online with family trees, are ONLY available from GRO or Local Registry Offices.

Church of England Parish Registers were and are for recording Baptisms and Burials (not births and deaths) but you may be lucky if the Minister has recorded the date of birth or death, although the standard form generally has no special place for this information to be shown- the Minister just added it where he could find a space. Many of the registers (but not all) have been deposited with local archives. If they are online then you can download a copy - sometimes free - sometimes for a payment - or if not then the archive will normally be prepared to make a copy for you for a fee. If the register has not been deposited (it might still be in use) then you need to approach the local Minister for a copy - again he will most likely make a charge.

As for Catholic, Non-Conformist, Quaker (Society of Friends) and Jewish records, if you need them then you will have to make enquiries about what records are available and where, and if, they can be accessed.

[jmurphy]

Jan,

It is not possible to get birth and death certificates in this way because they are not Parish Records.

The information recorded in Parish Records for Births and Deaths has always been Baptisms and Burials and therefore often does not contain the same information as formal GRO Birth and Deaths, which always contain the actual Birth Date and actual Death Date, of course pre 1837 (in England and Wales) there was no civil registration so all we have are the Parish Records which may or may not contain a death date and a birth date in addition to the Baptism and Burial dates.

Yes, of course.

See what happens when I post before my morning tea has woken me up?

Thanks, Jane. Thanks, too, to Lorna and Gerry for your comments. When I saw the Devon burial record with the note that my husband's great-uncle was buried in the US, I think "gobsmacked" is the correct way to describe my reaction. I do know how lucky I was, both to have found an email friend who offered to look up records for me, and for the record to be there for her to find.

In this case, images of the town register in the US with the death registration, and the printed index which gives a pointer to that record, are available on Ancestry. An image of the register is also available on Family Search. Some US death certificates are on Family Search and Ancestry, but whether you can see the actual printed form filled out by the doctor and filed with the state depends on the individual locality. The Massachusetts State Archive has a sample image "Return of a Death" showing what the record looks like, from a death in 1903, so I might be able to have someone retrieve the image of the contemporary death return for me, if I hired a professional to get it locally. But as far as I know, if I were to request the information from the state, the certified copy would be a printed transcription of the information on the handwritten form. I have seen those posted on Ancestry by people who have attached the images to their trees.

I haven't pursued church or cemetery records on the US side, because I'm on the other side of the country from the family's hometown.

This discussion raises an interesting question: who gave the information to the parish in Devon? The family was in the US from 1898-1904, after which some of them returned to England. I've corrected my earlier post -- the death takes place in 1902, so the parents are still in the US. And presumably there would be a record of the death of an English citizen who died abroad at the GRO? It would be interesting to get this certificate from the GRO and find out the name of the informant in England.

Sorry to make a fuss, but my goal to be as clear as possible when I think about a source, to remember what exactly it is and where it came from, and to understand the whole process that caused a record to be created. To do otherwise can lead me to forget I can get more information from other sources. For instance, in one state, I can see on Ancestry what are called "delayed birth records", where people have requested certificates from the states for births which took place before the official state registration started. People took whatever documentation they had, such as a family Bible, into the county clerk's office, and the clerk submitted an application to the state for a certified birth records. It's important to remember that this is not the same as a copy of that person's birth certificate -- and for family history purposes, in some respects, it is better, because it gives a pointer to other information. If you know that there was a family Bible, for instance, you might be able to find your cousins and ask them if anyone still has that Bible.

Thanks to everyone for jogging my memory about the English records.

[LornaCraig]

And presumably there would be a record of the death of an English citizen who died abroad at the GRO? It would be interesting to get this certificate from the GRO and find out the name of the informant in England.

Some, but not all, deaths of British citizens abroad are in the GRO Consular indices. However the informant would have been in the country where the death occurred, not in Britian.

The following information comes from Findmypast.co.uk

"If you have a relative or ancestor who was born, married or died overseas, but was still classed as a British citizen at the time of the event, then it is quite possible that the British Consul or the UK High Commission in the relevant jurisdiction would have been notified of the event, allowing you to find their record within the GRO's Consular indices.
There are some caveats to this though:
Whilst most births, deaths and marriages were registered with the British Consul or the UK High Commission, the overseas records are somewhat incomplete, as registration is not compulsory for British nationals abroad."

[jmurphy]

Thanks, Lorna. I haven't looked at my notes in a while -- that was two computers ago, and I'm basically starting from scratch now with FH5 -- so I don't know off the top of my head what other searches I might have made for records about this death.

Clearly it is time to re-read Ancestral Trails, as I've forgotten a lot of the basics I learned when I was just starting out.

[saban]

Hello Anne & Jan. You have both confirmed that it is possible to get images of marriage certificates from Ancestry and Find my Past and that they contain exactly the same information as a GRO cert would.
I am trying to find the Birth record of Ruth M. Kelly. I know when & where she was married; and so I thought that if I could see an image of her marriage certificate I would know if she was a spinster or widow/divorcee and most importantly, her age. I could then trace her birth.( there are so many Ruth M Kelly's in the GRO index) I do not know which is the correct one.
I belong to Ancestry and when I go into the program I click on BMD 1837-2005>Marriage>marriages 1916-2005>Ruth M. Kelly>Search. I then scroll down to Ruth M. Kelly (spouse Saban)>view record. But, nowhere can I find a record which gives me an age or condition.
Can you assist please? Would I be better of in joining Find my past? Or have I got it all wrong again?
Ron

[tatewise]

I think I have found the Marriage Index on FindMyPast:
Paul S SABAN married Ruth M KELLY in Surrey in Q4 1978

You are unlikely to find a church parish record online for such a recent marriage, assuming they married in church, and not a Registry Office.

Sometimes you need a bit of lateral thinking to progress your research.
I think I have the Birth Index for Paul S SABAN on FindMyPast:
Paul S SABAN born in Essex in Q2 1950 which makes his marriage age 28

So presumably his wife Ruth was a similar age, which will narrow down your search for her birth.
Unfortunately, several Ruth M Kelly were born between 1950 & 1960.

If Ruth had been married before then KELLY was her first husband's name.
There are several marriages between Ruth M and KELLY between 1950 & 1978.
A likely candidate is:
Ruth E M COLLIN married Brian J KELLY in Surrey in Q3 1963

So did Brian J KELLY perhaps die between 1963 and 1978 ?
Or are we barking up the wrong tree?

Maybe the only option is to buy the GRO Marriage Certifiacte.

[AnneEast]

Ron, as Tatwise says, only SOME parish record marriage certificates are available. They are for selected areas (selected by Ancestry and Findmypast) and only those before the 1920s or 1930s can be found. You have to search for them in the Parish Record section, not the BMD section.
Anne

[saban]

Thank you all very much. If it were absolutely vital, I would, with the information that I now haven purchase a GRO Certificate. As it is I can live without it.
Thank you all again
Ron