Shorthand way to key DATE (app)

RalfofAmber · Post by **RalfofAmber** » 17 Oct 2007 12:54

I enter a lot of dates as YYYY (app) when I am fairly sure but not certain (e.g. when a census gives age as 22 approximate).

I find typing (app) a nuisance (ok my typing skills are sloppy on the closing parenthesis) and it takes time and I get errors when I key YYYY (app0 by mistake!

Would it be possible to allow me to key ~YYYY and have FH convert it on save?

ID:2564

JonAxtell · Post by **JonAxtell** » 17 Oct 2007 14:06

I agree. I would suggest also that the standard Gedcom abbreviations are used as well. Well FH does claim to be 100% Gedcom compatible doesn't it?

So 'abt YYYY' should work as well as common abbreviations seen elsewhere such as 'cYYYY' and '~YYYY'.

ADC65 · Post by **ADC65** » 17 Oct 2007 16:04

Those are all available as date phrases of course.

You could also avoid typing '(app)' by clicking on the Date Helper button next to the date, and clicking the 'Approximate' radio button before typing the date. I find this preferable otherwise I end up with some odd date qualifiers too!

JonAxtell · Post by **JonAxtell** » 17 Oct 2007 16:21

Agreed that they become date phrases since they aren't recognised by FH, however that means that they can't be sorted on so not necessarily that useful.

Using the mouse to click the button to bring up the Date Helper, then re-positioning the mouse to click on the approriate qualifier radio button, then moving it to the year field, then moving your hand away from the mouse to the keyboard to enter the year is soooooooo long winded compared to keeping your hand on the keyboard and typing ONE extra letter such as c or ~.

That's ok if you've got time to waste, but even a one fingered typist should find it easier to keep their hand on the keyboard rather than move between it and the mouse. Don't forget everytime you grab the mouse your eyes have to find the cursor, you then have to re-position the mouse to within a relatively small area to hit the radio button which is not easy when slightly disabled or you have a crap mouse or you don't have the coordination or you're using a trackball. Just mentioning it from the perspective of a how a good user interface should work.

I still can't work out why '(app)' is used when the Gedcom method is 'abt'.

ADC65 · Post by **ADC65** » 17 Oct 2007 16:26

LOL! I don't see it quite the same way, an extra click here or there isn't such a big deal to me, however you do make a good point - it could be better.

I'm glad I'm not the only one confused about why (app) instead of ABT. Is (cal) standard?

Post by **NickWalker** » 17 Oct 2007 22:37

JonAxtell said:
I still can't work out why '(app)' is used when the Gedcom method is 'abt'.

I suspect this is because it is more readable to see the date with the (app) after it particularly if looking down a list of dates the abt/cal/est don't get in the way e.g. in the events tab:

Born Oct 1841
Died Dec 1872 (app)

Obviously as you are aware the actual GEDCOM saved to the file uses ABT so FH is still (as far as I know) 100% compatible. The way it looks on screen and the way it is recorded in the raw GEDCOM are two completely different things. It wouldn't make sense for all information to be shown in GEDCOM format, it would really confuse people!

JonAxtell · Post by **JonAxtell** » 17 Oct 2007 23:52

The way it looks on screen and the way it is recorded in the raw GEDCOM are two completely different things. It wouldn't make sense for all information to be shown in GEDCOM format, it would really confuse people!

So what is the reason why when you want to add the text to a citation you have to first select 'Data' which opens up the little tree to allow you to add the 'Text from Source'. The 'Data' bit is purely Gedcom and confuses people since it doesn't help in any way to understand the citation and in fact gets in the way.

Anyway I thought the defacto standard throughout all other genealogy systems is 'abt' or 'c'. FH is the only ONE in the world that I have seen which uses the 'special' term '(app)'. Not helpful to users migrating from other programs.

ChrisBowyer · Post by **ChrisBowyer** » 18 Oct 2007 05:53

In general, how data is presented, and how it's encoded and stored are (and should be) quite seperate in any program, but it seems to me this is about how input is interpreted, which is again a seperate subject.

It would be a significant usability improvement if FH were to accept a variety of formats for dates regardless of how it stores or presents them, especially as I am often copy & pasting this information from some other source, and forcing me to retype it is an inevitable cause of transcription errors. For just a year, clearly 'ABT 1837', 'approx 1837', '1837 (app)', 'c1837', '1837?' and even '~1837' could all be interpreted as meaning 1837 approximately. This is stored in the Gedcom as 'DATE ABT 1837'. It is displayed as '1837 (app)' in dialogues, as '1837?' in lists, as '1837 (approx) in record expansions and as '1837' with the 'Approximate' button pressed in the date entry assistant.

The same argument applies (perhaps more so) for day/month/year... there are a variety of non-ambiguous formats I might type (or paste) that FH could quite reasonably accept as dates rather than date phrases, regardless of how it's stored in the Gedcom (which must be according to the standard of course... that is what makes FH 100% Gedcom, not how it interprets or displays anything), and regardless of how it's displayed, which should be according to my preferences.

Post by **NickWalker** » 18 Oct 2007 19:43

Yes I agree with your post totally Chris, it would be useful if there were more options for how to enter the data and more options for how to display it.

Tombaston · Post by **Tombaston** » 19 Oct 2007 21:35

JonAxtell said:
So what is the reason why when you want to add the text to a citation you have to first select 'Data' which opens up the little tree to allow you to add the 'Text from Source'. The 'Data' bit is purely Gedcom and confuses people since it doesn't help in any way to understand the citation and in fact gets in the way.

I put a feature on the wish list a long time ago to not display the DATA field (feature 207 - Add Source Entry Date and Text From Source to Right Click Context Menu). As you have left a comment against it Jon, I assume you must be one of the other six people who have voted for it. Looks unlikely to happen without more support.

JonAxtell · Post by **JonAxtell** » 20 Oct 2007 12:07

Yep, a rating of 4 from me.

RalfofAmber · Post by **RalfofAmber** » 20 Oct 2007 15:47

and me (now I've had it pointed out[wink])

ChrisBowyer · Post by **ChrisBowyer** » 20 Oct 2007 16:20

JonAxtell said:
Using the mouse to click the button to bring up the Date Helper, then re-positioning the mouse to click on the approriate qualifier radio button, then moving it to the year field, then moving your hand away from the mouse to the keyboard to enter the year is soooooooo long winded compared to keeping your hand on the keyboard and typing ONE extra letter such as c or ~.

Jon... type the year, double-click it (or click the '...' button can't see a way to do either without the mouse though), hit Down-arrow and Return.

JonAxtell · Post by **JonAxtell** » 21 Oct 2007 12:29

That still one mouse move which is still an age and a huge awkwardness.

Read any book or guide about user interface design and they will all say 'do not mix mouse and keyboard under any circumstance'. Stick with one or the other. Diagrams can primarily use the mouse as they are graphical, but a genealogy program is basically a specialised database program and therefore driven by data which is textual.

And carrying on about the keyboard, the support for it is haphazard and random throughout FH. Some dialog can accept Enter or Alt-O for Ok, others insist on a mouse click. Some dialogs don't understand Esc to cancel, whilst others do. Some menus have good support for keyboard shortcuts, other don't. Purely random and used as an afterthought with no sign of any design at all.

I'll stop now, since this is a wish list request forum and not the issue forum.

ChrisBowyer · Post by **ChrisBowyer** » 21 Oct 2007 15:36

I agree with you in general Jon, FH user interface is at best quirky... I was only trying to help.

jmurphy · Post by **jmurphy** » 23 Oct 2007 00:01

Tombaston said:

I put a feature on the wish list a long time ago to not display the DATA field (feature 207 - Add Source Entry Date and Text From Source to Right Click Context Menu). As you have left a comment against it Jon, I assume you must be one of the other six people who have voted for it. Looks unlikely to happen without more support.

I've just voted in support of this, too.

At least now I know why the annoying Data thing is on the menu. But it makes absolutely no sense to have this visible to the end user.

If there must be an extra menu, have 'Add Text from Source' as the menu item instead of 'add Data' and then have 'Add Entry Date' as one choice and 'Add Text' as the other on that sub-menu.

Jan

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