* Adding Media files.

[NickWalker]

Please could you explain what benefit you gain by linking a census image to the fact given that from the facts tab as it's only three clicks to select the fact, open the media pane on the citation and open the image in the Editor/player?

Adrian explained in his answer to me that this was an experimental thing and more related to how the images will appear on TNG.

[Vyger]

You'll have seen my reply to Nick, above, so you'll now know this was from an experimental point of view.

But the reason I considered it more of a faff is because in the case of a Census image for three people, say, then I believe I would have to go to each person, find the Census fact in the Facts tab, click the icon, Click 'Add Media for Fact', then 'Link to Existing Media Record', find the record, move it over, click, click, click ... rinse and repeat for each person. Whereas linking to a person or persons, I click the Census Fact on any of the people it has been attached to, click the cog in the sources and go straight ot the Media Window. From there it is very easy to drag and drop people over to the image. The Media Link Tool makes this very easy for multiple people.

Adrian, I realise your methods were developed many years ago when the 'warehouse' was still under construction, let me explain how I enter and attach media as a relatively new user.

1. Turn on Auto Sourcing, create Source, Add Media.

2. Add all the individual facts I wish.

3. Share the Census as Witness to other household members.

I produced a long winded test comparison between Rootsmagic versions and Family Historian using a free click counter a year or more ago. I was using a family census entry as an example, the video is on the link below.

https://youtu.be/KlDB5IAe2vU?si=nXNBqcO8GMQiCJ1X

Family Historian required around 40% less clicks and almost a third of the mouse travel compared to the other program. Outside of how someone feels, using a click counter is the the only real way to measure click effort required.

BTW, this discussion has shown me one area of excessive click demand which I intend to report. I hate additional clicks, the main reason I migrated to Family Historian.

[ADC65]

Thanks for your tips, Vyger.

I recently watched your YouTube video on "Linking Media files to facts, events and individuals in Family Historian ft. Rootsmagic": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm4f824cXwI

It was very informative and taught me a number of techniques that I wasn't previously aware of. I'm not sure how I would incorporate them into my current workflow, but they are very useful to know anyway.

I use a very different workflow to the one you mention above. I have never been a fan of creating the source record before entering the fact. I don't have an objection to it, it is just that my brain works in the opposite direction.

For all data that can be entered via Ancestral Sources, then that it what I do; it's such a boon to have that program. It creates everything I need - links media, renames stuff - absolutely great. The only thing I do after entering a document via AS is go and link the media to people (for my own purposes, I think we have established this is something I want for my own use inside and outside of FH).

For the documents that AS doesn't handle for me - for example gravestones, obituaries, etc. - I create the fact first - let's say a burial fact based on an obituary. Then with that fact selected in the property box, I click the "Add Citation" in the sources box at the bottom of the screen, and "Add New Generic Source". From there I create the Source details and then switch to the Media tab and add the media.

I have previously tried Source-driven data entry but I nearly always get lost half way through. The fact-driven data entry is just too ingrained for me to change now, and, in any case, I don't really see any advantages of one over the other.

Anyway, thanks for the video. Every day's a school day, eh?

[tatewise]

Adrian, it is interesting that you don't seem to consider capturing source record details via AS as Source-driven data entry, which is what it is. In AS you record all the source document details first and then AS creates the Facts. You don't create the Facts first and then use AS to add the Source citations.

[ADC65]

I'm not sure what your point is Mike. I was just describing my workflow, I'm not going to get precious about the terminology.

I think I explained that what I don't enter in AS (i.e., in FH) is what I consider fact-based entry.

I'm not sure what I would classify AS-entry as - perhaps just that - AS-entry. For me, it's still really fact-based - I load up AS and enter the facts from the document (source), and then the facts about the document (source). Or maybe the other way around. It's not something I have to worry about in AS.

[Vyger]

Thanks for your tips, Vyger.

Absolutely no problem, I have said before that I am relatively new to FH, I demonstrate the way which seems easiest to me. However I've been around software long enough to know everyone has their own methods and anyone can do as they please as long as they understand the implications.

Source driven data entry make sense to me but others think different. If I am entering data from a Will or Census then everything I enter stemming from those documents stem from the same source.

Interestingly Fact then Source copy and paste was the Rootsmagic way (my previous software) I believe it is still essentially the same except citations can be reused in the latest version.

Also in Rootsmagic I was forced to link media to the facts they supported, not the source where I believed they belonged. This was the only way I could see any visual clue to the existence of that media, a program shortcoming which may be overcome now. I'm in the process of adjusting those links from facts to citations.

When Rootsmagic 8 was released there was a user outcry due to the Person Media Gallery being missing and this was not replaced until version 9. Interestingly that is essentially what you and Trevor Rix have been trying to achieve.

When I return from vacation I intend putting the critical eye on this and creating a New Wish List discussion to help better understand FH evolution and the ways others have historically worked and why.

I regret the "workaround", "wrong" and "incorrect" descriptions have been badly received. I find sticking to the middle of the road is usually the path of least resistance and every program can be improved through constructive discussion.

Jackson

[NickWalker]

I agree Adrian, the terminology doesn't really matter at all. However in case you find it of interest.... The reason why I believe Ancestral Sources is a 'source driven' approach is that you are entering the details of the source, effectively transcribing the source in AS, and from that all the facts are generated for you. Whereas what I used to do in the days before AS, is to look at a document (such as a census) and think "I need to create a census fact to record that part", "I need to create an occupation fact to record this other thing" and do that for each person. So that's a fact-driven approach.

[BillH]

For the documents that AS doesn't handle for me - for example gravestones, obituaries, etc. - I create the fact first - let's say a burial fact based on an obituary. Then with that fact selected in the property box, I click the "Add Citation" in the sources box at the bottom of the screen, and "Add New Generic Source". From there I create the Source details and then switch to the Media tab and add the media.

Just so you don't think you are alone, I do it the exact same way. I create the fact first and then use Add New Generic Source (or Cite Existing Source if it already exists).

Bill

[NickWalker]

For the documents that AS doesn't handle for me - for example gravestones, obituaries, etc. - I create the fact first - let's say a burial fact based on an obituary. Then with that fact selected in the property box, I click the "Add Citation" in the sources box at the bottom of the screen, and "Add New Generic Source". From there I create the Source details and then switch to the Media tab and add the media.

Just so you don't think you are alone, I do it the exact same way. I create the fact first and then use Add New Generic Source (or Cite Existing Source if it already exists).

Bill

And so do I Bill if I'm adding it in Family Historian. So I'm source driven in AS and fact driven in FH

[Vyger]

I know methods evolve due to the possibilities available but I'm getting more curious re time frames and versions.

I bought FH6 near EOL leaving FH7 as my main exposure. I believe I've seen FH Auto Sourcing demonstrated in early videos by Jane Taubman but may be incorrect there. I have also heard all the objections regarding forgetting to switch Auto Sourcing off although that yellow banner is big enough.

Can I ask BillH and Nick when they developed the muscle memory for fact driven data entry in FH? Also was there no alternative when they did?

Jackson

[KFN]

I agree Adrian, the terminology doesn't really matter at all. However in case you find it of interest.... The reason why I believe Ancestral Sources is a 'source driven' approach is that you are entering the details of the source, effectively transcribing the source in AS, and from that all the facts are generated for you. Whereas what I used to do in the days before AS, is to look at a document (such as a census) and think "I need to create a census fact to record that part", "I need to create an occupation fact to record this other thing" and do that for each person. So that's a fact-driven approach.

The primary difference between (as you describe) fact vs source driven is when you start entering data into the database. Most software starts you off with data entry at the fact with the source being added next! Entering the source first makes a lot of sense!

My question is “How does this relate to the title of this thread?” If the “Source” is the 1900 US Census, “Cite” the location of the census (state, country, city, ward), the line number of the entry and take a picture of that entry and associate it with each fact that is represented by that entry. So, without regard to the way you enter data, the image of the cited data should be associated with the data it contained.

Or am I missing something in your way of doing things?

[BillH]

I know methods evolve due to the possibilities available but I'm getting more curious re time frames and versions.

I bought FH6 near EOL leaving FH7 as my main exposure. I believe I've seen FH Auto Sourcing demonstrated in early videos by Jane Taubman but may be incorrect there. I have also heard all the objections regarding forgetting to switch Auto Sourcing off although that yellow banner is big enough.

Can I ask BillH and Nick when they developed the muscle memory for fact driven data entry in FH? Also was there no alternative when they did?

Jackson

Well. I've been doing it this way for about 30 years. I've been using FH for about 14 years. I don't necessarily agree it is fact driven. I start with a document (the source) in front of me whether it is paper or digital. I then create the fact using that document as the source of information. I then create the source record from that information and link it to the fact. To me that is source driven, I just don't create the source before I create the fact.

Bill

[NickWalker]

Can I ask BillH and Nick when they developed the muscle memory for fact driven data entry in FH? Also was there no alternative when they did?

The key point is that 99% of the sources I enter are birth, baptism, marriage, death, burial and Census and I enter those with AS. I could turn this round and ask why on earth you would enter that data into FH when it is so much easier, faster and more consistent to do so in AS! Of the 1% left a large proportion of those would be GRO register records where I would just enter a fact and link it to my GRO source (as I use a lumped source for GRO registers). If I found a will for someone then it's likely I'd be looking at them on the properties dialogue in FH so I'd create a probate fact for that person then add a citation to a new source and then enter a transcription of that source into the source text. This is quicker that creating a new source and then having to go back and find the person again and then add the fact and then have to find the source I just created. I expect if I was adding lots of sources in FH I might find other ways to do this, but it is so rare that I create sources in FH that I find this the quickest way to do this. I will frequently copy and paste facts to other people which duplicate the citations too or use Auto Source.

[NickWalker]

I agree Adrian, the terminology doesn't really matter at all. However in case you find it of interest.... The reason why I believe Ancestral Sources is a 'source driven' approach is that you are entering the details of the source, effectively transcribing the source in AS, and from that all the facts are generated for you. Whereas what I used to do in the days before AS, is to look at a document (such as a census) and think "I need to create a census fact to record that part", "I need to create an occupation fact to record this other thing" and do that for each person. So that's a fact-driven approach.

The primary difference between (as you describe) fact vs source driven is when you start entering data into the database. Most software starts you off with data entry at the fact with the source being added next! Entering the source first makes a lot of sense!

Thank you, yes entering data by starting with the sources was one of the things that AS pioneered. Calico Pie have replicated some of these ideas in FH7.