* Question about scope of records handled by A.S.

[fhtess65]

I enjoy when threads go this way - I've learned a couple of things.

Should also mention that I came to much the same conclusion as Gary a while ago and now use a modified Strathclyde method.

My, but this thread has wandered...

We're genealogists, Gary. We chase all the rabbits down all the holes. One of them might be a cousin...

[Gary_G]

Just a quick note on what I'm discovering as I work through the Ian G. MacDonald book to create my templates.

One thing that I can say is that the book is quite confusing wrt. the subject of citing Wills and Testaments. It seems to try to roll everything into one format. On its own, trying to template Scottish Wills and Testaments gave me a headache. When I mixed that with the tenuous equivalents in Britain and North America, the effect was more like a migraine. For those attempting to use the noted book, I would strongly recommend creating totally separate templates tailored to the system used in each country . The documentation systems for some countries tend to be so different that one may just find it faster and easier to create a separate template set for each country.

[AdrianBruce]

... The documentation systems for some countries tend to be so different that one may just find it faster and easier to create a separate template set for each country.

Indeed - even between England & Wales on the one hand and Scotland or Ireland on the other. I've never tried to concoct one format to cover both ScotlandsPeople stuff and the corresponding England & Wales stuff - however, I wouldn't be surprised if migraines ensue.

(My formats are skeleton content of a generic source record, which I clone, rather than source templates).

[Gary_G]

Adrian;

Have you ever seen a list of the types of "Will and Testament" class documents that are available for each of England, Wales, and Ireland? I'm toying with using a pulldown list in the templates, if possible.

In Scotland, it appears that there are three items that can appear on their own or in combination; a Will, an Inventory and a Confirmation. There are two Testament packages in which one finds these; a Testament Testamentar and a Testament Dative. The Testament Testamentar contains a copy of the will, an Inventory and a Confirmation clause. The Testament Dative is used when there is no will. It contains only the Inventory and a Confirmation clause. A Confirmation can also be issued on its own.

So; for Scotland, I think are likely 5 documents that can be registered with the courts and would appear in a pulldown list; Will, Inventory, Confirmation, Testament Testamentar and Testament Dative. In addition; there is also a Calendar of Confirmations document that is an index to the registered documents.

I suspect that Wales and England likely have similar documents and combinations, but no doubt name some of them differently. I "believe" there are Wills (aka. Testaments), Letters of Administration (aka. Administration or Admon), Admons with Will, and Inventories. However; unlike Scotland, I'm a bit fuzzy on how they all hang together. It appears that Administrations are like Confirmations. Wills and Inventories seem to function the same. I don't know if England has something like a Testament Testamentar and a Testament Dative.

As for Ireland.... I really have no clear idea. I did find a bit of a writeup that seems to imply it roughly follows what is done in England.

[AdrianBruce]

Most of the Irish stuff was destroyed in the 1922 fire. Post 1858, some wills were filed in local probate offices first, rather than the central office in Dublin, so the local copies survive but I would have guessed that they follow basically the same process as England & Wales. Other possibilities are that extracts and/or summaries of wills survive in Dublin's Registry of Deeds documents. I would, however, class those as Registered Deeds (the images are on FamilySearch) that happen to be of a certain sub-type.

Re England & Wales: I've always equated Wills with Testaments. (The classic wording is "This is my Last Will & Testament..." though I have an idea that legal historians can explain how, centuries ago, wills and testaments were different...)

Letters of Administration are liable to confuse if you make the mistake of reading the documents concerned! Genealogists tend to refer to Letters of Administration (aka Admons) only when there is no will. However, there is always a grant (aka letters) of administration to the executor - otherwise, they have no authority to act. I have never sat down and looked at the difference in wording between a grant where there is a will, and a grant where there isn't a will. So the classic cases are

• A Will (usually with a grant of administration attached);
• An Admon (i.e. a grant of administration but no will);
• An Admon with Will attached which is basically an ordinary will but where all the executors are dead or decline to serve. Or you could reverse it and say that it's like an Admon but with a will...

There are other documents - Inventories appear in earlier years, whether there is or isn't a will. Also, England & Wales can have Bonds where the executors promise faithfully to carry out their task on pain of a penalty payment to the local bishop (pre-1858).

There are also various Calendars and "Act Books" (similar to Calendars) listing "transactions" relevant to wills and probates. In most cases, if there is no will, there is no benefit - certainly not in post-1858 England & Wales - of getting a copy of the Admon since it contains no more than what's in the Probate Calendar.

I think that the grant of administration equates to the Scottish Confirmation.

Does England have a Testament Testamentar and/or a Testament Dative? Well, in my experience, no because it doesn't bother to give a name to what is actually just a bundle.

If anyone can refine any of the above, comments will be gratefully accepted.

[Gary_G]

Thanks, Adrian.

Unlike Scotland, I haven't seen the court filings for England, so I can't venture a guess as to whether there is a parallel to a testament testamentary or dative. From what you said, it sounds like the constituent items were normally filed separately and the court kept track of when it had enough to issue the final paperwork. I can see from Scottish records that in Scotland they normally gathered all the individual documents together and make a single filing upon the persons death, in order to get confirmation. The confirmation basically allowed the executors to proceed with executing the will and other administrative tasks on behalf of the deceased.

[AdrianBruce]

... From what you said, it sounds like the constituent items were normally filed separately and the court kept track of when it had enough to issue the final paperwork.

Not really - everything's down to the executor. They have to gather the stuff (such as it is) and then go to the probate authority who then produces the final paperwork granting probate and thus authorising the executor to proceed with the disposal of the estate. Errors and omissions excepted, that's a single-shot process. Occasionally in church court days (i.e. pre1858) the executors had to report back to the court at the end of it all to persuade the church court that they'd done everything properly in disposing the bequests. I say "occasionally" - that might have happened frequently but I seldom see any evidence of it. I've only got one(?) set of papers that implied the executor had to render an account after everything was completed.

There's certainly no ongoing dialogue with the probate court as seems to happen in the USA.

[Gary_G]

Sounds like using a pull-down is not going to work. There are numerous permutations and combinations of submission content on any given date. A text field will have to be used to capture exactly what was filed on a given date.

[AdrianBruce]

Sounds like using a pull-down is not going to work. There are numerous permutations and combinations of submission content on any given date. A text field will have to be used to capture exactly what was filed on a given date.

I agree.

[tatewise]

The discussion about the Chris Read plugin is now in GRO Source Reference plugin (22906).

[ChrisRead]

The discussion about the Chris Read plugin is now in GRO Source Reference plugin (22906).

Meant to say thanks for do that, as I was feeling a bit guilty, knowing it needed to move out of this thread, but some people on the thread were still interested.

For anyone interested it's now in the plugin store for you to try out, and with a full help page. I hope some do as I think it adds something beyond some of the similar ones (except for FH source templates support ). I have been using it myself, so I should catch any issues.