* AS / FH and TNG Gedcoms

[kevync1985]

Excuse my newness to FH and mostly Ancestral Sources.
I have been using FH (FH7) about 2 months and testing Ancestral Sources.

So far everything looks good in both FS/AS. However, I notice 2 undesired results when importing the GEDCOM to TNG Website. I am hoping others who use TNG can offer some input.

• Image/Media is only attached to source and not to fact -- this cause undesired display of media items being only like to source. -- is there a way to link both at same time without updating manually?
  
  Source Rich Text Auto Text -- looks great in FH/AS but terrible -- this might be something I have to live with for now - but hoping maybe found something that worked

thanks Kevin

[NickWalker]

So far everything looks good in both FS/AS. However, I notice 2 undesired results when importing the GEDCOM to TNG Website. I am hoping others who use TNG can offer some input.

• Image/Media is only attached to source and not to fact -- this cause undesired display of media items being only like to source. -- is there a way to link both at same time without updating manually?
  
  Source Rich Text Auto Text -- looks great in FH/AS but terrible -- this might be something I have to live with for now - but hoping maybe found something that worked

I can't answer your TNG query but regarding the image question... The image you are attaching is an image of the source (e.g. a birth certificate) and not an image of e.g. the actual birth, so that's why the image is linked to the source. The fact is linked to the source and in FH if you click on the fact and then on the Show Media button you'll see the images linked to the source. A census source, for example, might lead to a census fact, occupation fact and birth fact being generated for each individual and so you would end up with a lot of duplication if the image of the census was attached to all 3 of those. I do appreciate that we can all choose to do things in different ways, but linking the image to the fact isn't supported in AS if you use method 1. Method 2 does support this (because it doesn't make sense to link the image to a lumped source) but I don't recommend Method 2 if you want to include a transcription.

You could turn off rich-text in AS and it would generate a plain text transcription instead. Alternatively you could request TNG to support FH rich-text.

Cheers

Nick

[ADC65]

I assume you are wanting to link the image of the source media to the person so that the TNG Person screen will show the media in the media section, rather than buried within the sources, which will have to be clicked through at the bottom of the page before you can then view the media attached to it. This has been recently discussed elsewhere on this forum.

If you are trying to get something like this:

tng.jpg (127.26 KiB) Viewed 1616 times

Then you will need to manually link the person to the media after adding via FH or AS. This is easily done in the Media Window - there are various ways of getting to the window, but one way is to find the Source you have just created in the Sources tab (order by 'Updated' to bring the recent additions to the top), double click to open the source window, click the bottom cog and choose 'View Media for this Record in Media Window'. Click the Media Link Tool on the left-hand side tabs and drag over the person you want onto the media, and create a simple link. The person will appear in the Links tab on the right, like this:

fh7.jpg (18.01 KiB) Viewed 1616 times

When exporting to TNG, you should now find the media will appear against the person, although you will need to be careful in setting up the correct media sections in TNG for these to appear properly. If you're not sure how to do that, it's probably more appropriate to ask in the TNG forums than it is here (https://tng.community/index.php?/forums/)

You might also find that by linking the media to people directly that there are undesirable effects on reports in FH, with the media appearing multiple times (if you use reports). You can mitigate this by right-clicking on the name in the Links Tab, as shown above, and choosing an appropriate Exclude From option.

I can't help much on the Rich Text question as I don't use it myself. However, Mike Tate's Export Gedcom Plugin has options which I believe will convert or strip Rich Text (as I don't use Rich Text I am not absolutely certain). Do you use that plugin? It has settings specifically for TNG which may help solve other issues you may see.

[kevync1985]

I assume you are wanting to link the image of the source media to the person so that the TNG Person screen will show the media in the media section, rather than buried within the source

yes that is correct -- which up until I test AS worked fine using FH. I test AS on one Family group to see what would happen... the media is buried in TNG Source. so it seems after using AS (method 1) I am going to have to go back and manually link to fact(s). I understand how to do this -- but wish it could be done at same time. Maybe something Nick can add an option for in the future.

The rich text issue appears to be all on TNG - so that is something I can direct to Darrin.

Thanks!

[NickWalker]

It seems a shame to have to link images to a fact just for it to display correctly in TNG. This would be adding something to AS purely to work around a problem with someone else's software. Looking at the screenshot that Adrian posted, if TNG took a leaf out of FH's book and displayed images linked to sources cited by the facts then this would be a non-issue wouldn't it? I've never used TNG so I may be misunderstanding. You pay money to TNG which I'd have thought was an incentive for them to keep customers happy, but instead you're asking me to make the change to get around the problem!

[tatewise]

Kevin, I don't recall any discussions from you in the Importing and Exporting forum regarding TNG.
I can confirm that my Export Gedcom File plugin has options for handling Rich Text which for TNG converts to HTML 5 format and I've had no complaints from the many users who regularly migrate FH to TNG.
Perhaps this discussion really belongs in the Importing and Exporting forum?

[ChrisRead]

Have you had a look at the FH Plugin called "Export GEDCOM File". It has a lot of options on how to export your file. In particular it has options for various targets such as Find My Past (which I use) and The Next Generation which you are using. It will tidy/remove FH specific things to make the GEDCOM compatible. In particular things such as converting the Rich Text to plain text.

Can't guarantee this will help you out, but worth mentioning as you are new to some of this.

[kevync1985]

.
The fact is linked to the source and in FH if you click on the fact and then on the Show Media button you'll see the images linked to the source. A census source, for example, might lead to a census fact, occupation fact and birth fact being generated for each individual and so you would end up with a lot of duplication if the image of the census was attached to all 3 of those. I do appreciate that we can all choose to do things in different ways, but linking the image to the fact isn't supported in AS if you use method 1.

thank you to you explaining About Method 1 vs Method 2 (splitting vs lumping)
I do not think I would want to use Method 2 whenever Method 1 was available.
Method 2 for Military draft records or City directories type facts probably would be appropriate.

t seems a shame to have to link images to a fact just for it to display correctly in TNG. This would be adding something to AS purely to work around a problem with someone else's software. Looking at the screenshot that Adrian posted, if TNG took a leaf out of FH's book and displayed images linked to sources cited by the facts then this would be a non-issue wouldn't it? I've never used TNG so I may be misunderstanding. You pay money to TNG which I'd have thought was an incentive for them to keep customers happy, but instead you're asking me to make the change to get around the problem!

Fair point I guess -- but then I do NOT understand how the that info in linked in GEDCOM which was why I was asking.
If the info to link the source/media/fact is in the GEDCOM -- then there should be options of how those 3 are handled.

thank you for your always insight-fullness

Kevin

[NickWalker]

Fair point I guess -- but then I do NOT understand how the that info in linked in GEDCOM which was why I was asking.
If the info to link the source/media/fact is in the GEDCOM -- then there should be options of how those 3 are handled.

thank you for your always insight-fullness

I was perhaps being a little mischievous in my response so apologies as I wasn't really having a go at you. I'm always happy to accept suggestions.

[kevync1985]

Fair point I guess -- but then I do NOT understand how the that info in linked in GEDCOM which was why I was asking.
If the info to link the source/media/fact is in the GEDCOM -- then there should be options of how those 3 are handled.

thank you for your always insight-fullness

I was perhaps being a little mischievous in my response so apologies as I wasn't really having a go at you. I'm always happy to accept suggestions.

Nick - no worries. You earned the right to be defensive if need be.
What triggered my question -- I did not have an issue with TNG prior to using AS -- I didn't mean to come across as blaming AS.

I am still a little confused as why Sources/Citations etc are difficult to manage with different software.
The links to facts/people etc. are bit weird a time (the database -- not GEDCOM). If you are open -- maybe the community of users can vote if there should be an option for "Method 1M" for media that would link media to desired relevant facts.

[tatewise]

Kevin, as I said earlier, I think this discussion is in the wrong Forum.
It is not likely to be a feature that users will want AS to perform and duplicate Media in their FH Project data.
The fundamental principle of Method 1 is to avoid duplicated Media and Text from Source.

It is something that perhaps my Export Gedcom File plugin could do where GEDCOM Destination products would benefit.
I often add features to that plugin as requested by users to satisfy the needs of other products.
I'm in the process of adding a feature to copy Source record Text from Source to Census local Notes for TNG users.
So a similar feature could probably copy Media from Source records to Facts for TNG users.
Please start a discussion in the Importing and Exporting forum.

It is likely that the differences you are observing in products is that many of them favour a variant of Method 2 where Media is attached much closer to Facts, whereas FH favours Method 1 where Media is in a separate record.
GEDCOM supports both Methods but not usually simultaneously.

[ChrisRead]

option for "Method 1M" for media that would link media to desired relevant facts.

I'm not sure what I'm missing here, but for facts in FH, if you have a citation/source with media, then clicking the Show Media for the selected fact shows thumbnails all the media for the all sources the fact references. You can then decide how you want to view them.

[NickWalker]

option for "Method 1M" for media that would link media to desired relevant facts.

I'm not sure what I'm missing here, but for facts in FH, if you have a citation/source with media, then clicking the Show Media for the selected fact shows thumbnails all the media for the all sources the fact references. You can then decide how you want to view them.

Yes FH does that but as I understand it, Kevin's problem is that TNG doesn't do that so the images don't show up for him in TNG unless they are linked to the fact.

It appears that the best way to export to TNG is to use Mike Tate's plugin so Mike's suggestion of adding this as an option to his plugin would seem to be the best solution. Actually the best solution would be for TNG to handle FH data without requiring Mike's plugin, but I don't know anything about the TNG team and how responsive they are to user requests.

[tatewise]

I've copied this thread to the Importing and Exporting forum where IMO it really belongs

[ADC65]

Yes FH does that but as I understand it, Kevin's problem is that TNG doesn't do that so the images don't show up for him in TNG unless they are linked to the fact.

Just to be explain, the images do show up in TNG, and they show up where they're supposed to - i.e., when you view the source. If you were to click the source reference number in the image I posted above, you'd see the source itself, which will include a link to the image:

tng2.jpg (77.43 KiB) Viewed 1474 times

(Note that by default the thumbnail would be of the document itself - I have modified these.) So in fact TNG works pretty much like FH - you view a person, select a fact, click on the source and then on the media icon to view the media.

The difference is the Person Page in TNG lists, in sections, all the facts about a person, and then has sections for media, photographs, and so on. Some people, myself included, like to have all the media grouped into sections at the end of a person's details so it is easy to click through and see them rather than going into different source records one by one. It's just a different way of working, but I agree with Nick - one software should not have to make allowances for the way another piece of software operates.

As it happens, I also like to have all the document images available on the FH Media tab for a person, so for me adding a person link to the media gives a double benefit.

FH7-2.jpg (76.58 KiB) Viewed 1474 times

It's very simple for me to add these links in FH7 after entering the document in AS. Personally, AS takes away the tedium of creating multiple facts and sources, renames my media files, and so on, and so I am very happy with what it currently provides.

[NickWalker]

So in fact TNG works pretty much like FH - you view a person, select a fact, click on the source and then on the media icon to view the media.

But in FH I don't have to click the source to view the media. If I select a fact it shows me any media linked to the fact, citations and the source. i.e. it automatically follows the citation links to the sources and fetches the images from all of them for me.

The difference is the Person Page in TNG lists, in sections, all the facts about a person, and then has sections for media, photographs, and so on. Some people, myself included, like to have all the media grouped into sections at the end of a person's details so it is easy to click through and see them rather than going into different source records one by one.

So with the caveat that I know nothing about TNG and what it can and can't do other than what you've just said, I would have thought that if a user said "please can I have an option to show all the media linked to sources for this individual grouped into sections at the end of the person's details", it would be something that could technically be done fairly easily and would avoid this requirement for duplication. But I expect TNG have other priorities. I understand that Mike's plugin is needed currently to solve some translation issues (e.g. with rich-text) so until TNG are able to deal with all this, Mike's plugin would be the obvious place to build in this image duplication so it only appears in the exported file for TNG and leaves the FH file alone. That of course all relies on Mike being happy to do that - he has priorities too

[ADC65]

But in FH I don't have to click the source to view the media. If I select a fact it shows me any media linked to the fact, citations and the source. i.e. it automatically follows the citation links to the sources and fetches the images from all of them for me.

Could you show me what you mean, please? I'm not sure how I would see all that in FH. Admittedly I have things set up to my workflow so I might have changed something. If I select a fact, there is no media linked to it, because it's linked to the source. If I select the fact below, I then have to click the picture icon in the source citation box to get at the media.

Screenshot 2023-03-16 234438.jpg (75.24 KiB) Viewed 1448 times

So with the caveat that I know nothing about TNG and what it can and can't do other than what you've just said, I would have thought that if a user said "please can I have an option to show all the media linked to sources for this individual grouped into sections at the end of the person's details", it would be something that could technically be done fairly easily and would avoid this requirement for duplication. But I expect TNG have other priorities. I understand that Mike's plugin is needed currently to solve some translation issues (e.g. with rich-text) so until TNG are able to deal with all this, Mike's plugin would be the obvious place to build in this image duplication so it only appears in the exported file for TNG and leaves the FH file alone. That of course all relies on Mike being happy to do that - he has priorities too

The coding for the Person Page is very, very complex and there has been very little change (in fact, none I can think of) to its basic design for a long time. Changes to the page mainly rely on user-written Mods which can be installed via a Mod Manager, a bit like plugins for FH but less sophisticated. But the principle remains that any user can theoretically write a mod to do anything, including rearranging the Person page without changing anything in a GEDCOM from FH7.

I agree with all you say, I was just trying to explain that TNG does display the media, just in the citation not the fact, if that's where it's been put in FH7. In my opinion the programs do things very differently and trying to get them to work the same is frustrating, if not fruitless.

[kevync1985]

I checked TNG wikipage for some MODS -- have not yet found a workaround from that end.

Also this issue is not limited to TNG -- I tied loading the FH Gedcom into another website program (WebTrees) and had the same undesired result.(at least with the standard import settings). So this had to to with the FH GEDCOM not be friendly for websites.

[kevync1985]

But the principle remains that any user can theoretically write a mod to do anything, including rearranging the Person page without changing anything in a GEDCOM from FH7.

I agree with all you say, I was just trying to explain that TNG does display the media, just in the citation not the fact, if that's where it's been put in FH7. In my opinion the programs do things very differently and trying to get them to work the same is frustrating, if not fruitless.

This last sentence is accurate I would say -- event it programs the way sources/citations/media & facts are handled -- I have seen issues due to their approach. Not saying one is wrong or right / better or worse -- but certainly are not fully compatible with one another.

Also wondering if a mode to update the gedcom or update the TNG tables would be easier.
I am going to dig into this a bit more before I email Darrin (TNG Author). Maybe someone else has a work around.

Kevin

[LeslieP]

Could you show me what you mean, please?

I also need some help with what seems a basic FH feature.

The media tab for me only shows the media that is linked to the person. Usually just a headshot. I don't see any of the media attached to the person's facts, any media attached to events on which the person is a witness, or any media on the sources for their events. It would be great if I could figure out how to see all of that on the media tab. To now that media tab has not been of value to me.

Is there some "show media for facts" option somewhere I've missed?

[NickWalker]

If I click on a fact (e.g. birth) and then on the little image button below it shows me the images attached to the sources for that fact in the Media Viewer (I have the Include Source Record Media check box ticked). See the FH 7 help: https://www.family-historian.co.uk/help ... iewer.html

[ADC65]

If I click on a fact (e.g. birth) and then on the little image button below it shows me the images attached to the sources for that fact in the Media Viewer (I have the Include Source Record Media check box ticked). See the FH 7 help: https://www.family-historian.co.uk/help ... iewer.html

Ah, thank you. I didn't have the Include Source Record Media check box ticked, which makes quite a difference. I also notice that when that box is ticked, the little picture frame icon also appears to the right of the facts, which is very helpful. The icing on the cake would be if there were a little 'play' button in the Media Viewer popup window, instead of clicking View ... View in Editor/Player, but this is very minor.

You live and learn!

[ADC65]

The media tab for me only shows the media that is linked to the person. Usually just a headshot. I don't see any of the media attached to the person's facts, any media attached to events on which the person is a witness, or any media on the sources for their events. It would be great if I could figure out how to see all of that on the media tab. To now that media tab has not been of value to me.

As far as I know, the media that appears here is media that is attached to a person directly. So if you are looking for something like the screenshot below, you are going to need to add a person link to the media (e.g., census, birth certificate, etc.), in the way I described in the post above.

Note that you are going to have to make judicious use of the media ordering and/or Exclude From ... flags if you don't want pictures of a census appearing as the mugshot against the person in the Focus Window or Reports.

Screenshot 2023-03-17 105916.jpg (129.53 KiB) Viewed 1337 times

[tatewise]

Here is my guide to displaying Fact related Media in FH as illustrated in the screenshot below.
The important step is to open the floating Media for Fact window as shown on the left below.
Either click the Show Media icon highlighted in yellow in the toolbar below the Fact list, or single-click any of the Media icons highlighted in yellow in the More column on the right.
In the floating Media for Fact window ensure both Include Source Record Media and Include Citation Media are ticked, otherwise only Media attached directly to the Fact are shown and produce Media icons in the More column.
With the floating Media for Fact window open, select any Fact and its Fact/Citation/Source Media are displayed.
To view any Media item in full just double-click it and image Media get displayed, non-image media must be double-clicked again to open the Viewer/Player or the Open in Viewer/Player button clicked.

FactMedia.png (159.68 KiB) Viewed 1335 times

[kevync1985]

Here is my guide to displaying Fact related Media in FH as illustrated in the screenshot below.
The important step is to open the floating Media for Fact window as shown on the left below.
Either click the Show Media icon highlighted in yellow in the toolbar below the Fact list, or single-click any of the Media icons highlighted in yellow in the More column on the right.
In the floating Media for Fact window ensure both Include Source Record Media and Include Citation Media are ticked, otherwise only Media attached directly to the Fact are shown and produce Media icons in the More column.
With the floating Media for Fact window open, select any Fact and its Fact/Citation/Source Media are displayed.
To view any Media item in full just double-click it and image Media get displayed, non-image media must be double-clicked again to open the Viewer/Player or the Open in Viewer/Player button clicked.


FactMedia.png

To clarify--
My challenge is not how FH display Media within itself -- that works fine for me -- the issue is how is it is in the GEDCOM and after being imported into at least 2 different Website software. That said -- it could be argued that the website software is doing exactly what it is told and no more. The challenge is finding an ideal solution that works for both. I originally came from FTM/Ancestry which created a rather mess of Sources/Citations/Media -- but they imported fine into the website software. I delayed working on sources and citations to rebuild most of tree from scratch because I wanted to get the Sources right the first time. I have rebuilt 10K media items to document the facts -- just need redo the source/citations to document facts now. If I did not use a website that also needs to display the info this would be a NON-issue.