* Question on image metadata - date + keywords

[strathglass]

What does FH7 use for date value when a photo is imported?
I assume it is using one of the EXIF values (like Date Time Original)...can this be confirmed?

Also, is there a reason IPTC keywords are not imported?
Lacking that functionality, are there any available tools to pull in IPTC keywords into the FH7 keyword list?

It looks like the image Title value is taken from the IPTC Description field, which is fine for my use.

-strathglass

[LornaCraig]

Tools >Preferences > Media offers offers options to Autogenerate Keywords and Copy Image Tag Values to the Media Record.
This is from the FH Help files:

media preferences.jpg (85.72 KiB) Viewed 2589 times

[Mark1834]

The potential issue here is that there is more than one way to use these fields.

My approach is to restrict use of Picture to photographs of physical things such as monuments, etc, and replace Documents with a more precise description such as Census, Parish Register, etc. I record Date as the date of the event it relates to, not the date the image was created.

[strathglass]

I will have to contact the developer and see how I can report a bug: based on the screenshot from Lorna I should be seeing the keywords from the photo in FH7 when I have enabled the media option for "Copy Image Tag Values to the Media Record" (which is enabled by default).

But after import I only see either blank or "Picture" as the keywords (depending on the state of the "Autogenerate Keyword" media option.

Image below from the Irfanview viewer confirms the imported image has numerous IPTC keyword values set!

[Mark1834]

Bug report form

[strathglass]

Thanks Mark - bug report submitted: ticket #661983. I included my test image.
-strathglass

[yogadad]

@strathglass - Keep us posted on this. I have the same question. I have checked the box in the Media preferences window to copy image tag values to the media record but none of the keywords, the description, or the caption appear in the FH media record.

[strathglass]

yogadad - I will credit support for being quick to respond!
Below is their response and my followup (so they may respond again).
At least I now know how it works (and how the help file is wrong and should be corrected).
I can work around this issue by writing a script as noted, which I will probably do!

ORIGINAL TICKET PROBLEM STATEMENT:
FH7 Help indicates if the media option is enabled for "Copy Image Tag Values to the Media Record",
then image keywords will be copied into the Keywords field of the media entry in FH7.

However this is not the obsereved behaviour I observed: my image keywords were ignored and not imported.
I have attached the test image I used for this.
(See also my FHUG post on this issue here: <had a link to this thread>)

SUPPORT RESPONSE FROM MARTIN:
Family Historian does not support every possible metadata tag value for an image. There are hundreds of standard EXIF and IPTC tags, and more custom ones. Microsoft, in File Explorer, has in the past used various custom tags in different versions of Windows, though its policy on this appears to have changed over time. FH currently supports 7 EXIF tags only. However, we have made a note to review our support in this area. Thank you for raising the issue.


MY FOLLOWUP CLARIFICATION OF THE ISSUE:
Thanks for the prompt reply.
I do encourage you to support IPTC keyword imports!
However most important is to recognize right now your current help file is WRONG:
Go to Tools-->Preferences, then select "Media" from the list on the left in the resultant dialog, and then press the "Help" button to get the help page "Preferences Dialog: Media":
It very clearly states there that the "Copy Image Tag Values to the Media Record" option will work as follows:
"... the following image tag values will be automatically copied to the new Media record field: ... 'Keywords' to the Keywords field (merged with auto-generated keywords)"

The problem with that is you have stated above that you only use EXIF tags: EXIF HAS NO KEYWORD TAGS!
So if you truly only support EXIF tags, then in fact keywords are not supported!

Because your "database" is text (GEDCOM), I can easily read the keywords from the media files (e.g. using exiftool) and then write a script to push the extracted IPTC keywords from the images into the project GEDCOM database (goes in a comma separated list in a KEYS line for the image entry in the GEDCOM) ... so that is one solution in the interim. (I did notice that ampersands in my keywords were doubled up in the GEDCOM: when I manually add keyword @@DONE to an image the GEDCOM file shows it as @@@@DONE, so since I use that character in some of my IPTC keywords, I would need to handle that behaviour: hopefully no other exceptions/escaping required for my other keyword characters used.)
But I would urge:
1) you should support import of IPTC keywords when media is imported
2) in the interim the help should be updated to remove the claim that keywords are imported to the database when media is imported.

[AdrianBruce]

Since I really like metadata, this issue rang a bell with me. It looks like we've been here before with what FH metadata import actually supports. If it's at all useful, see viewtopic.php?f=32&t=12761

The thread appears to have a lengthy subplot that's nothing to do with the metadata issues and since it's so old, chunks may now be out of date but some aspects may provide more information about metadata in various different applications.

[tatewise]

Because your "database" is text (GEDCOM), I can easily read the keywords from the media files (e.g. using exiftool) and then write a script to push the extracted IPTC keywords from the images into the project GEDCOM database (goes in a comma separated list in a KEYS line for the image entry in the GEDCOM) ... so that is one solution in the interim. (I did notice that ampersands in my keywords were doubled up in the GEDCOM: when I manually add keyword @@DONE to an image the GEDCOM file shows it as @@@@DONE, so since I use that character in some of my IPTC keywords, I would need to handle that behaviour: hopefully no other exceptions/escaping required for my other keyword characters used.)

You mention 'ampersands' &&, when you mean 'at signs' @@ which have a special meaning in GEDCOM.
They form part of the record cross-reference format @XREF@ where XREF may be I321 or S123, etc.
To prevent any misunderstanding the GEDCOM specification demands that natural @ characters in text must be duplicated.
So the behaviour you are observing is correct and when viewed inside FH only single @ characters will be displayed.

[strathglass]

Thanks Mike - yes, brain cramp: wrote ampersand but meant "at" sign.
Yes, I realized afterwards how GEDCOM uses that with a number as an identifier, so requiring an escape sequence for that makes sense!

[BEJ]

I was alarmed to read about the issue with metadata keywords and immediately checked a few of the media files that I had uploaded to FH. Please clarify the following for me.

The original post was concerned with why “IPTC keywords are not imported;” my emphasis. The next post copies FH help files about metadata for media ADDED. Are both referring to the same process?

The media files I have uploaded (i.e, added) retain the keywords I had previously entered in their metadata. What am I missing?

[tatewise]

Here we are talking about Adding Media files with metadata to FH Media records.

If the Media file metadata has Keywords then they should be imported to the Media record Keywords field providing that the Copy Image Tag Values to the Media Record setting is enabled which is the default.

The Media file metadata will be unaffected.

[BEJ]

Ah, makes sense. Thank you.

[LeslieP]

With a bit of investigation on what FH is doing with metadata when a jpg is pulled in, with Tools - Preferences - Media - Copy Image Tag Values to the Media Record enabled:

FH Title field is filled from EXIF "Image Description" which most image processing programs will sync to the IPTC Caption, XMP DC:description field. For my purpose, this isn't acceptable. Description/Caption is a much larger field with much more extensive content, it really should go into the FH NOTE field

FH Title should come from XMP.DC:Title / IPTC Headline, but it doesn't.

Keywords don't import at all.

Date is filled from EXIF Image Date Taken / XMP.EXIF:DateTimeOriginal / XMP.Photoshop:DateCreated / IPTC Created Date

For my purpose the date part is correct, but since the Title is so wrong, I've chosen to disable the FH metadata import entirely. Doesn't seem like the metadata import from images has been given much detailed thought over at CP yet. Maybe someday.

[strathglass]

LeslieP wrote:

FH Title field is filled from EXIF "Image Description" which most image processing programs will sync to the IPTC Caption, XMP DC:description field. For my purpose, this isn't acceptable. Description/Caption is a much larger field with much more extensive content, it really should go into the FH NOTE field

FH Title should come from XMP.DC:Title / IPTC Headline, but it doesn't.

According to the IPTC specs:

1. Headline (max 256 bytes): A brief synopsis of the caption. Headline is not the same as Title.
   • Headline Help Text: Enter a brief publishable synopsis or summary of the contents of the image
2. Description (Label=Caption/Description; max 2000 bytes): A textual description, including captions, of the image.
   • Description Help Text: Enter a "caption" describing the who, what, and why of what is happening in this image, this might include names of people, and/or their role in the action that is taking place within the image
3. Title (max 64 bytes): A shorthand reference for the digital image. Title provides a short human readable name which can be a text and/or numeric reference. It is not the same as Headline.
   • Title Help Text: Enter a short verbal and human readable name for the image, this may be the file name
   • Title User Note: Many use the Title field to store the filename of the image, though the field may be used in many ways. Formal identifiers are provided by the Digital Image Id, or the Registry Entry property of the IPTC Extension.

Based on the above, I would want either the IPTC Headline or IPTC Description to go to the FH7 title: which one depends on whether you would want a shorter or longer value (headline is "limited" to 64 bytes).

Title in the IPTC context is really intended as more of a name for the image (and could be a copy of the filename, as noted) (but also as noted the actual usage is flexible).

I don't know if I stated it before but in my tests the IPTC Description is what FH7 places into the title field: so that is the longer of the two options - which is actually fine by me. You just need to know that fact so that in your image editing software you know what IPTC field to set!

[BEJ]

Based upon consideration of this thread I’ve also disabled the FH metadata import. What is the disadvantage of doing so?

[strathglass]

Based upon consideration of this thread I’ve also disabled the FH metadata import. What is the disadvantage of doing so?

I myself wouldn't disable the import (i.e. I would leave checked the option for "Copy ImageTag Values to the Media Record"). Some may have a valid reason not to enable this.
But if disabled:

• You lose automatic date setting (if your image has EXIF date set, it will not get imported; not an issue if you are importing a scan that does not have an EXIF date set, or has one that is not meaningful [e.g. may have scan date but not actual document/image date])
• You lose automatic title setting from the IPTC Description (may not be an issue if you don't use this IPTC field, or use another field for your title).

Regarding the other "imported" data - keywords and comment:

• IPTC keywords are not imported as previously discussed.
• Comments do not seem to be imported: IPTC has no comment field but EXIF (XMP) has a UserComment field. (My own software cannot set this, but I can set with exiftool.) After setting the comment with exiftool (and verifying it with irfanview), I can say that after import to FH7 the image's Picture Note field is empty. So it seems like the comment import, like keyword import, does not work. (Unless FH7 is getting the data from some non-standard field?)

So normally there would be no reason to disable this (default is enabled), especially if you know how it works, as discussed in this thread (except the mystery about the comment field).

[Edited to clean up notes about comment field]

[BEJ]

strathglass — Thanks for your response. I will consider the import of having the metadata date in the Media Record. I do enter the historical date in my file names, but those could be edited in the future.

I will add that not all image software conforms to the standards published by IPTC. Commonly the Title and Headline fields are confused. Therefore, I put the same text in both fields. Also, some developers label the standard field named “Description” as “Caption.” Photos may indeed have captions, but they are external to embedded metadata.

[LeslieP]

I will add that not all image software conforms to the standards published by IPTC.

I'd love to find just one that DOES conform to the standards!

Ever since I decided many many years ago to use the standards to annotate my family photos, I've had to tweak and manipulate this way and that way to accommodate the way programs "support metadata" and "import metadata from the files". If they would just publish the chart of which field they pull from the file into which field in their software it would be great, but they don't. So I have to test and document it on my own, which is silly. But at least once I DO get it figured out, I can then decide whether to use it or not. In the case of FH, their implementation fails me, so I will disable it, glad that I can do so! Happy that it works for those of you it works for.

[yogadad]

I will add that not all image software conforms to the standards published by IPTC.

I'd love to find just one that DOES conform to the standards!

It would be a good thing if FH imported at least Title/Caption and Keywords from the IPTC standard. It's a shame that the work that I do to tag my photos is lost in FH. The same thing happens on Ancestory & FamilySearch, but those are not sites where I keep my research and family tree up to date. Now I wondering whether there is any family history/genealogy software that does support the IPTC standard for uploaded photos.

[strathglass]

It would be a good thing if FH imported at least Title/Caption and Keywords

Agree about the keywords, a real shame they do not currently do that.
But be careful with the wording on the other: it is Title (64 character limit) vs Caption/Description (2000 character limit):
the description IS imported OK. So if you currently use title, you can at least use your image management software to copy title to description before export, then FH would import that image including the description!

[yogadad]

But be careful with the wording on the other: it is Title (64 character limit) vs Caption/Description (2000 character limit):
the description IS imported OK. So if you currently use title, you can at least use your image management software to copy title to description before export, then FH would import that image including the description!

Thanks for adding that. I was imprecise.