* Quality of media images in diagrams

[Gowermick]

I have attached a newspaper article as media to one of my relatives, when the person is included in a diagram, image is still readable when zoomed in. Yet when I do the same with a baptism image, it is unreadable!
Both images are jpg and both view well in windows photo viewer.

Is there something I can do to make baptism image readable in a diagram?

[tatewise]

I suspect those two images have different resolutions.
If you zoom into them in MS Photos does the detail start to suffer in the Baptism image?
If you open them in IrfanView or your favourite image editor you should be able to compare their resolution, size, etc.

Even right-click on the JPG and choose Properties, and then the Details tab gives dimensions, pixels, resolution, etc.

[Gowermick]

Thanks Mike, perhaps I need to double check that.
I really thought resolution was fine, as I can expand it to fill full screen and it is as clear as a bell, whereas the articles gets a bit blocky, so I thought Baptism image would be fine too.

I’ll do a check of reolution, size etc and report back.

[Gowermick]

Mike,

The article image (which displays fine) is 431 x 471 pixels @72 dpi
The Baptism Image (display blocky) is 4992 x 4144 pixels @150 dpi

It would seem that if I reduce the Baptism image to 72 dpi, it results in a Blocky image, exactly the same as it appears in the diagram, my conclusion is that the media file in the diagram, despite original file being 150dpi, is being reduced to 72 dpi.
I can't see anywhere to override this

In answer to your question, the Baptism image is fine in photo viewer, even at high magnification, wheras the article starts to get a bit blocky at high magnification

[tatewise]

The Baptism image is more than 10 x 10 times larger.
The Diagram > Options > Pictures tab default setting is to Shrink Large Pictures.
In shrinking the Baptism image to the same size as the newspaper article it dramatically loses resolution.

If you used an image editor on the Baptism image and reduced its size from 4992 x 4144 pixels to 499 x 414 pixels and kept a 150 dpi resolution what do think will happen?

[Mark1834]

This sounds familiar. Remember the discussion a couple of weeks ago on very large flag icon files? The conclusion then was that FH diagram printing did a relatively poor job of rendering a large file down to smaller size compared with reducing the image file size first in an external application such as IrfanView. I wonder if we are just seeing a different manifestation of the same issue.

[Mark1834]

I'm happy to be corrected by one of our image experts, but isn't dpi irrelevant nowadays for image files? All that matters for the actual image file is the number of pixels along each axis. Dots per inch describes the output density when that file is printed (to paper or pdf), and is meaningless unless you know the physical size of the printed image.

I believe older printing systems were more concerned with nominal physical sizes, but more modern printer systems just fit the file into the defined space (A4, etc), so it shouldn't make any difference whether it's 72 dpi, 150 pdi, or anything else...?

[Martin Tolley]

Mark is correct. For image files on screen, resolution values are irrelevant if you (re-)size the images in pixels. This YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSx1PlrUhr4 shows what's really happening. It's a bit convoluted in parts but the illustrations of images at various resolutions are very informative. Watch the first five minutes or so for some examples.

[Gowermick]

I've abandoned the idea. No matter how much I resize the image, pixels, cms or inches, I lose too much definition when its viewed in a diagram. Perhaps I'm expecting too much of FH.

Ho-hum, back to the drawing board

[tatewise]

Try experimenting with the Diagram > Options> Pictures tab.
It is set up to display photos of people taken with similar characteristics, but your requirement is rather different.
Try increasing the Maximum Picture Height and untick Enlarge small pictures to same height.
That will allow large images to be displayed with a higher resolution but smaller images will not get expanded.

Another idea is to use Diagram > Insert into Diagram > Picture... just for the very large images such as the Baptism.
Ideally, place that image near the person's box, or add some text to the person's box that refers to the separate image.

[Gowermick]

Mike,
Nothing seems to work.
1. I can view image on media tab of individual and it zoom in ok.
2. I can insert it directly into a diagram and it zooms ok
3. When image is attached to an individual, it becomes blocky, regardless of Diagram Image size setting.

I tried increasing image size to 24", and as you can see from attachment 1, the image attached to the individual (on right with Pinkborder) is far larger than the unattached image (on the left)

Diagram with picture 1.jpg (103.99 KiB) Viewed 1261 times

yet is still blocky when zoomed in (attachment 2)!

Diagram with picture 2.jpg (53.52 KiB) Viewed 1261 times

,
NB This is before creating a PDF

[tatewise]

Perhaps report those symptoms to CP and see what they say.

I've performed some similar experiments with the same results.
Even if an image is inserted into Diagram as a Picture and looks OK, when saved to PDF the resolution is still poor.

I used the Family Historian Sample Project document images in the \Media\Certs\ folder which are not significantly different in size and resolution from the photo images.

[Gowermick]

I've performed some similar experiments with the same results.
Even if an image is inserted into Diagram as a Picture and looks OK, when saved to PDF the resolution is still poor.

Mike,
That's not my experience.
I inserted the Baptism image into the chart, and shrunk its size approaching height of boxes.

Inserted Picture.jpg (20.01 KiB) Viewed 1214 times

I then produced a pdf, (albeit at 2400 dpi), and one can zoom in quite nicely.

Then I had a brainwave, I shrunk the image to the size of the media image box, then moved it to sit over the actual media image box, and it worked!!! It came out well in the PDF and it zoomed nicely

Inserted Picture3.jpg (36.17 KiB) Viewed 1214 times

The problem seem to be when the same image is added as media, then something goes wrong with the FH Shrinking routine when producing the original diagram (i.e before producing PDF)

The workaround is a bit hit and miss, but if a user can do it, why can't FH do it?
As you suggest, I'll report to CP and see what they say

Update: Support Ticket 674800 Raised

[tatewise]

Sorry, should have said I produced the PDF with the default dpi.
If the dpi is suitably increased (only possible with Family Historian PDF) then the Picture is fine.

[Mark1834]

This YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSx1PlrUhr4 shows what's really happening. It's a bit convoluted in parts but the illustrations of images at various resolutions are very informative.

Thanks for that, Martin. Image file terminology can appear a bit confusing, but having the key takeaway message that dpi in file properties is no more than a label that helps link pixels to printed image size and has nothing to do with the intrinsic resolution of the image is an excellent learning point.

[Gowermick]

Martin of CP, Replied as follows:

Please open Preferences (Tools menu). Click the 'Advanced' button on the General tab. What is the setting for "Diagram/Report Image DPI (max)"? The recommended value is 300. If it is less than that, I recommend setting it back to 300. If it is already 300, you can try increasing it to 600, 1200 or even to "no max". However, if you do this, please be aware that you are likely to run out of memory if you try to open very large diagrams or reports. In general, 300 should be fine for most people. For more information, please see the Help for this setting.

Another setting I wasn't aware of
Setting the above to 1200 dpi cured my problem (300 and 600dpi image still blocky), and my media image is fully readable when diagram zoomed.

So all this talk about dpi setting being irrelevant is patently wrong in this case - another lesson learned

[tatewise]

Presumably, you must still set the Family Historian PDF properties to 1200 dpi to get the resolution in the saved PDF file.

It is not that dpi is irrelevant but that it is only needed in certain circumstances and these are those.
If the pixel dimensions of an image are known then dpi is irrelevant regarding resolution but is needed to set print size.
In this case, the Diagram is organised into pages (probably A4 size) which have physical dimensions in inches.
So the conversion from inches to pixels requires a dpi setting.
e.g.
A4 is 8.3" wide, which at 300 dpi converts to 2490 pixels and results in a 'pixelated' display.
Whereas, at the larger 1200 dpi it converts to 9960 pixels and gives a more detailed display.

[Mark1834]

I'm getting a little lost between the two parallel threads, but earlier Mike (L) talked about generating his diagram as a single page image measuring 150" by 68". Printing that to PDF at high resolution is an absolutely enormous image!

Echoing Mike T's comments, I'd recommend watching the video again, as I'm not sure that Mike L has fully taken on board the distinction between intrinsic image quality (only pixels) and the quality of the image produced when that image is printed to either paper or PDF (dots per inch, as specified in the printing process, not in the file properties).

[Gowermick]

I'm getting a little lost between the two parallel threads, but earlier Mike (L) talked about generating his diagram as a single page image measuring 150" by 68". Printing that to PDF at high resolution is an absolutely enormous image!

Your point? My computer handles it easily

Echoing Mike T's comments, I'd recommend watching the video again, as I'm not sure that Mike L has fully taken on board the distinction between intrinsic image quality (only pixels) and the quality of the image produced when that image is printed to either paper or PDF (dots per inch, as specified in the printing process, not in the file properties).

I am merely pointing out that changing the dpi on the aforementioned page did have an affect on the production of the diagram itself, (before attempting to produce a PDF).
Regardless of what the video said, changing the dpi setting had the desired effect - the proof of the pudding etc etc

[Mark1834]

Exactly - you increased the resolution when the image was transferred to the diagram. You didn’t change any property of the image file itself. It still had the same value stored in its file properties, and what that value was makes no difference whatsoever, as you set the image size in the diagram.

To illustrate with an example. Suppose you place an image on your diagram that you specify to be 5" x 5". At the FH default of 300 dpi in diagrams, that is a maximum of 1500 pixels on each axis. Typical modern scanned images from the likes of FMP can often be over 4000 pixels in each direction, so you are already degrading the image by transferring it to the diagram. Setting the PDF driver to 1200 dpi can't recover that quality, as it has already been lost (see at as similar to watching an old TV program on a 4K set or a CD copy of an old 78 rpm record). By allowing FH to use "unlimited" dpi, you are allowing the full quality to be used. It knows how big the image is to be on the diagram and how many pixels the file contains, so that is all it needs. If it also tries to honour a nominated dpi set in the file properties, it's run out of degrees of freedom - you cannot specify all three values. It's a bit like saying you want a rectangle 4 in by 3 in with an area of 20 sq in. It can't be done, and one of the values has to be discarded, in this case the nominated dpi set in the file properties.

Does that make it clearer? DPI does matter when a file is printed (and transferring to a diagram is similar to printing), but it doesn't matter what value is actually stored in the file. That the key point that the video was making.

[trevorrix]

I am wondering why you you trying to view the image in a diagram? In the Property Box > Media tab do you see a thumbnail of the image? If yes, select it, then click the black arrow in a green circle to "Open in Editor/Player" at full original resolution.

[Gowermick]

I am wondering why you you trying to view the image in a diagram? In the Property Box > Media tab do you see a thumbnail of the image? If yes, select it, then click the black arrow in a green circle to "Open in Editor/Player" at full original resolution.

Trevor, I was sending a PDF of a diagram to some relatives, and was experimenting to see whether I could attach a detailed media image to an individual, which could be readable when zoomed in.

It turns out it is possible (see my earlier post)

[themoudie]

Aye MikeL,

Thank you for this thread, I wondered why my images were .... in pdf diagrams! But, I cannot get my head around the solution for any length of time, it just causes me vexation.

I will give it another try.

Good health, BillR