* How can I use a quarter date in a custom query?

[jclifford]

I am trying to write a custom query with a column which will allow me to identify and manipulate dates shown as Qn NNNN, but I cannot see which entry in the Field list to use.

Is it possible to do this? Or would it be easier if I changed them all to Date Range format first?

[LornaCraig]

You can do this with a Fact query with a row Add if... %FACT.DATE% contains text Q

[tatewise]

Presumably, you are hoping to manipulate Facts so I guess you are using a Fact type of Query.
Therefore, in the Columns tab, in the Fields pane, there is Fact - Date item that gives the %FACT.DATE% data reference.

If you are using an Individual type of Query, then in the Columns tab, in the Fields pane, you must select Individual, and then either Attributes or Events, then a fact name, and finally Date. However, every fact Date will need a separate Column and a separate Rows tab filter.

So regarding the Fact type Query, on the Rows tab, use Add if... %FACT.DATE% contains text Q with Match case ticked.
That will include every Fact with a Quarter Date in the Result Set.
If you use Q1 instead, then that will include only Q1 dates.

There is a slight risk that if you have any Date Phrases containing Q then they will be included too!
Nevertheless, there are some more complex Expressions that would avoid that risk.

What date manipulations are you hoping to perform?

[jclifford]

Thank you both for your advice, which has allowed me to put all records with quarter date births into a named list.

I am intending to experiment to find the pros and cons of using a separate Fact for Birth Registration as well as Birth and Baptism.

[davidf]

... the pros and cons of using a separate Fact for Birth Registration as well as Birth and Baptism.

I have pondered this (and similarly for death and death registration) and have (currently) come down against because the date of the registration event is of little significance to the individual and its only significance to us is as an explanation for a disparity say between birth and baptism dates and death and burial dates.

Often this disparity arises from the quarter of registration being later than the "actual event date". So a sickly newborn might be hurriedly baptised on 31th March, but the birth may not be registered until Q2 - and that gets entered from the Birth Indices as the "birth date" (often before the baptismal record is found) . This disparity disappears if you obtain the certificate because "Column 1" gives you the actual date of birth (unless the informant is fibbing because it is a very later registration) and the quarter date ceases to have any significance.

Ideally we might like FH to process quarter dates to say: "X was born during Qn of NNNN, or shortly before". If the event was possibly more than a few days "shortly before" we can add a note to the birth fact that this may be a late registration, a matter that can only be resolved by getting the birth certificate ... that then eliminates the need for a Quarter date! If we think that it is significant that the informant was persistently registering late, isn't a note on the relevant birth facts a better way of recording examples of that behaviour rather than creating a whole lot of paired birth and birth registration facts - the vast majority of which tell you very little?

Also if you have a registration fact, does the certificate then become the evidence of the registration (surely "yes", what else is?) and you then just create a greater tangle of sources, media and facts/citations - but to what end?

[mjashby]

@jclifford,

I use separate (custom) facts/events for UK Birth/Death/Marriage Registrations, but would suggest that, if you go this route, you add a Sort Date (using the 'All' Tab) for each Registration entry to ensure they are sorted into the correct order.

Mervyn

[Gowermick]

This disparity disappears if you obtain the certificate because "Column 1" gives you the actual date of birth (unless the informant is fibbing because it is a very later registration) and the quarter date ceases to have any significance.

Too true! My father was born 18th December, but nan was late registering him, so adjusted his birth to 31 December to avoid a fine. The birth registration entry actually appears in the index in Q1, the following year!

Just goes to show you can’t even trust ‘official’ documents

[davidf]

Just goes to show you can’t even trust ‘official’ documents

Even worse it goes to show you can't trust your nan!

[tatewise]

you add a Sort Date (using the 'All' Tab) for each Registration entry to ensure they are sorted into the correct order.

You don't need to use the All tab. Just use the Date Entry Assistant.
i.e. Double-click the Date box or single-click the [...] button at its righthand end.
Tick the Separate Sort Date option lower left and enter the Sort Date.
Note that you can enter a Sort Date without necessarily having a normal Date.

[mjashby]

Mike,

After all my years working with Windows apps and their multiple options for achieving the same goal, I still tend to get used to 'one-way' that I find quickest for me. Here, my omission was down to me hardly ever using the 'Date Entry Assistant' for entering dates.

Mervyn

[jclifford]

Mervyn - thank you for that suggestion.

David - I have over 20,000 UK people in my database and cannot afford to buy many certificates.
So I use the General Register Office indices which have been online for many years and are now showing more information than they used to - and (except for very recent events) all the dates are by quarter.
One reason for having separate Birth and Birth Reg events is that we can now find actual dates of birth on the 1939 Register and on the GRO Death Index for deaths after 1983, although in both cases the year can be inaccurate.
I would also like to find a way to upload records to TNG and have the dates displayed in a more concise way than "Between etc" and with an Event Name that will not mislead people unfamiliar with genealogical jargon.

[tatewise]

I would like to upload records to TNG and have the dates displayed in a more concise way than "Between etc".

You are not alone according to https://tng.community/index.php?/forums ... ter-dates/
But it is not possible according to https://tng.lythgoes.net/wiki/index.php/Dates
Some products like FH and Legacy offer the shorthand Qn yyyy format but TNG does not.
I suggest you contact Darrin Lythgoes directly at darrin@lythgoes.net.

[jclifford]

I have just tried uploading some test files to TNG and TNG seems to accept quarter dates in the form Qn NNNN - see this page:
https://hulbert.one-name.net/genealogy/ ... tree=tree2

Perhaps the problem is that TNG does not sort a date like this well?

I also found that if I entered a date phrase "Qn NNNN" into FH it exported it into a gedcom file as (Qn NNNN) and TNG accepted this (with the brackets).

So why does FH does not have an option (in Preferences?) to export a quarter date in Qform since it already has one to display the date in Qform? Perhaps the problem is something to do with keeping to a particular gedcom specification?

[tatewise]

Yes, the limitation is that the GEDCOM specification does not allow Quarter Dates in its Date formats.

In FH, under the hood, it always uses the Range Date format 'btw Mmm yyyy and Mmm yyyy' format.
The Quarter Date format option is purely a superficial user interface enhancement.

Yes, you can enter any text in a Date Phrase but it won't allow chronological date sorting in FH or TNG or any other product unless you add a Sort Date, but I believe TNG does not handle Sort Dates.

If the genuine Quarter Dates in FH migrate to TNG as Quarter Dates as you have found, then maybe TNG has been updated recently to support that display mode. Perhaps a TNG expert user could confirm that.

[jclifford]

I think that TNG just accepts whatever it is given in a Date field.

I have worked out a way to produce the results I want in order to use Birth/Death Registration Events in FH and to show quarter dates in Qn form when uploading to TNG. It is cumbersome but effective as long as I do not try to use too often.

For a one-off adjustment to my FH gedcom files I have created Birth and Death Registration events and then populated them as follows:

1. Open gedcom file with Notepad++ and choose Search>Find >Replace

2. Tick Match case, Wrap around and Extended

3. Set Find what to “1 BIRT\r\n2 DATE BET JAN” and Replace with to “1 EVEN\r\n2 TYPE Birth Registration\r\n2 DATE BET JAN”

4. Click ReplaceAll

5. Repeat for APR, JUL and OCT and then for DEAT and Death

Then whenever I want to upload to TNG I use Mike's Export Gedcom plug-in and then process the resulting gedcom:
1. Open gedcom file with Word and choose Home>Editimg>Replace

2. Click More>Use wildcards

3. Set Find what to "BET JAN ???? AND MAR" and Replace with to “Q1”

4. Click Replace All

5. Repeat for APR-JUN-Q2, JUL-SEP-Q3 and OCT-DEC-Q

and finally I use my own Basic program to create Witness role hyperlinks before uploading the gedcom file to TNG

[Little.auk]

too true! My father was born 18th December, but nan was late registering him, so adjusted his birth to 31 December to avoid a fine. The birth registration entry actually appears in the index in Q1, the following year!

In England and Wales births must be registered within 42 days (six weeks). So, following the rules, a birth registered in Q1 on 2nd January could have taken place as early as 21st November of the previous year! So, each Quarter in the Births Index actually covers 4 months and ten days.

I have one person in my family tree whose birth was registered in Q1 1943, but she was actually born almost 5 years earlier, on 8th April 1938! There is a handwritten addition on the Q2 1938 index page. I would love to know what went on there!

[mjashby]

Peter,

Could the annotation be a cross-reference to an earlier Birth Registration that did take place? I have come across that type of entry several times when a father's name was omitted from the original Registration and a Re-registration occurred later to provide the 'corrected' information. Perhaps look for a registration in the correct period under the mother's previous name/maiden name, which would have been similarly annotated with the later reference.

The two circumstances I've come across:

- 'straightforward' cases of illegitimacy where the parents married later and, presumably, wished to add the father's name to the birth entry.
- parent's were unable to marry before a birth because one of them was already married.

As far as I am aware there is/was no way for the parents (or the individual) to have an incorrect/incomplete registration certificate amended except by applying for the birth to be re-registered, which could also be the reason.

Mervyn

[brianlummis]

I have one person in my family tree whose birth was registered in Q1 1943, but she was actually born almost 5 years earlier, on 8th April 1938! There is a handwritten addition on the Q2 1938 index page. I would love to know what went on there!

Was the child included in the 1939 Register, if not the family may not have been issued a ration book and they need to register the birth to get one? Another possibility is that the child was not included as a potential evacuee as they did not exist in the eyes of the authorities. I am sure there are other reasons that may explain the delay.