* Adding sources without templates

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

Rosemary, I get the feeling you are not reading what we are telling you carefully enough.

To change the Citation display mode use the gearwheel cog Menu below to the right of the Add Citation button.
Use the Menu > Display Citation As > Source Record option or other options as desired.

Hi Mike, I'm reading and trying to follow the instructions carefully, but things don't seem to happen correctly. See below image. I've clicked on Frances death in 1971 and what you see on the right off the image, is what I get when I click on that event. As you can see it comes up with Footnote and all the icons to the right of the Add Citation option are greyed out, so I cannot click on the cog

If there are no Sources For records listed then you must use the Add Citation button to add a Source Citation.

I thought the idea of this was so that I could just paste in the references, rather than create actual Source Citations??

re 1911 census

You are adding the transcript table to the Text From Source field of the Citation, whereas you must use the Text From Source field in the Source record.
The Source record is shared by all the Facts that cite it, but each Citation is unique to each Fact.

Ah, OK. I can see that now, but it looks as if my transcript has now totally disappeared from the head of Household. If indeed it is the citation I'm looking at here (I don't know which as it says both) see attachment. how do I find my transcript, which presumably I must have put in the Citation, although I thought I was setting up a source? Although it may be in the source, where ever that is? I just don't know where it's gone. I understand the difference between a source and citation but I'm confused as to which windows in FH are which.

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[TheGarlickyKnitter]

NO, do not copy citation details into the Note box of each Fact. That is worse than filling in the same Text From Source details many times.

Hi Mike
Personally, I'd find it a lot quicker as I cannot get my head round these templates at all!

I am confused about whether you want a transcript or not. You start saying you are creating the transcript in the Text From Source and complain about entering it several times, then talk about putting the details into Notes, but now say you don't really need a transcript at all. Will you link an image of the Census instead? If so then it must be linked to the Source record and not the Citation.

Yes I can understand your confusion! Basically I'm trying to find the quickest and easiest way for me to add sources and references. As things stand, a straight copy and paste from Word, would be much, much quicker and easier. At the same time, I do want to learn how to use FH to it's full potential, because I know that there will come a time when my old TMG software will no longer work, and I was thinking that FH would be the right software for me when that time comes.

I may add images at a later date but at the moment I need to get the referencing and transcripts sorted out. I do want to learn how I can get transcripts to link to the people and events they are supposed to link to. Not necessarily censuses as I was just using them for practice, but I have a family for whom parish records are very minimal (17th cent, non-conformists, moved about a lot etc.) but fortunately, most of them made wills which will need transcripts.

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

You can copy and paste citations.

Select the event on the Facts tab.
Go to the Sources For: pane and select the citation.
Use the icon in the toolbar of the Sources For: pane to copy the citation.
Go to the individual you wish to copy the citation to.
Go to their Facts tab.
Select the event.
Use the icon in the toolbar of the Sources For: pane to past the citation.
image1.jpg
Bill

Thanks Bill, so as I see it you have to create a Source first and then paste in the Citation details? I didn't realise that, as when I'm typing notes, the Source and Citation are just lumped together as a Footnote.

[tatewise]

Yes, some of the icons to the right of the Add Citation button may be greyed out, but the cog wheel Menu is active.
It sounds like you have assumed it is greyed out without actually clicking the cog wheel

Your earlier screenshot showing the Text From Source tab is in the Citation window.
That window is opened by clicking the Edit Source Citation button next to the Add Citation button.
Then on the Text From Source tab both Source Record and Citation-specific details can be shown.
The same concept applies to the Notes tab and the Media tab.
But the Citation tab shows Source Record and Citation-specific details one above the other and can be configured to show Text From Source if you prefer.

Although you say you understand Sources and Citations maybe there are some aspects you have not grasped.
They are very different from Ancestry.
The most popular method, especially if you want a transcript and image is to put the details in the Source Record.
Source Records are entirely separate from Individual Records, Family Records. Media Records, etc.
They can be investigated on the Sources tab of the Records Window.
Citations are NOT separate records. They are closely coupled to each Fact and hold the link to the Source Record.
In this most popular method that is all they need to hold. They are mostly empty except perhaps for the Assessment.
So there is a separate Citation for each Fact, but in the Census example, they all link to one Source Record.

The purpose of the Add Citation button is to create the Citation coupled to the Fact and link it to a Source Record, which usually already exists, but may not have been cited yet.
As you have just realised Source-driven data entry creates te Source Record first and then adds the Facts and Citations.
Have you seen the Source > Learn about Source-Driven Data Entry... advice?
See Learn about Source-Driven Data Entry

[fhtess65]

Like you, I loathe the Ancestry sources/citations (though mine came in via my RootsMagic file that I TreeShared with Ancestry and imported to FH)...

Instead of deleting them all, I've been going through and using Ancestral Sources or FH templates to add new sources/citations and THEN deleting the Ancestry ones. It's a long project, but in the meantime, at least for those people I haven't gotten to yet, I still have some source information, even if it's not great.

Just my .02.

Hi
The files I have on FH were all imported from Ancestry via GEDCOM and I note that all the Ancestry-generated sources and citations (such as they are) have been brought with the GEDs. I loathe Ancestry's Source/Citations, so I wonder if there's any way that I can quickly remove all of that from my files on FH in one go, and then add new ones myself.

[fhtess65]

Thanks for the shout-out, Sarah!

And I know Teresa (who posts here sometimes) has a blog about using FH, and she specifically has done what you are doing regarding replacing old Ancestry generated source citations with new ones. Her blog is here - https://writingmypast.wordpress.com/

[fhtess65]

Rosemary,

Nick's follow-up video shows you how to use Ancestral Sources to add a census: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tj9FzTZIng

Like you, I had a hard time getting my head around using sources and citations when I first started with FH, but now I use AS and have spent a lot of time with FH, I finally understand, so I do feel your frustration. FH handles things differently than other genealogy software, but once you get it, you'll hopefully find it way better.

As for my blog, if you put Family Historian in the Search, you'll see the posts in which it's mentioned. Likewise for Ancestral Sources.

Teresa

Rosemary, perhaps a visual aid would help you with understanding sources and citations in FH7. In that case, I highly recommend this YouTube video (which coincidentally was created by the author of Ancestral Sources!). It is an excellent overview of how sources and citations work and might help you connect the dots between the help files and the practical “doing” in the program - https://youtu.be/jm6gg1HSbEs

Hi, and thanks for your reply. I watched it earlier and whilst I did learn some things, it didn't really tell me HOW to do things. Adding a census with all the household linked to one source and citation for example, is explained. As I've said in other posts, The source text disappears for everyone apart from the Head of Household. Also in the video, I noted that the names listed as being in the Household, had blue links, but I still have no idea how. I have manually added the Source/Citation to each of the other people, so it's not as if I created new ones for each person.

[BillH]

Thanks Bill, so as I see it you have to create a Source first and then paste in the Citation details? I didn't realise that, as when I'm typing notes, the Source and Citation are just lumped together as a Footnote.

Rosemary,

This isn't exactly what I'm saying. Mike is right. First create the citation and fill in any source fields that you wish. You can then copy that citation and paste it on another event for the same person or a different person. I don't use templates so may not be the best person to help with your second sentence about Footnote.

To see both the Source fields and the Citation fields, double click on one of the citations in the Sources For: pane. That will open the Citations: window. At the top is the Source Record with the Source fields. At the bottom are the Citation Fields. Make sure the transcript is in one of the Source fields at the top.

I have tailored what shows on the Citation window, but it should like something like this:

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Bill

[jelv]

I would strongly recommend that you try out Ancestral Sources - it makes things very significantly easier and quicker than doing it in Family Historian. When starting out with FH I actually found it easier to understand sources and citations by looking at the data created by AS.

The author is a very active presence on these forums and responds to suggestions and issues far quicker than Calico Pie do to FH issues. There are a lot of users of the add-on on these forums (it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of users who are active on these forums use AS) who can give help and advice to it's use.

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

Also, because it is designed for one specific task, the learning curve is not as steep as that in FH7, and the creator Nick Walker provides excellent support. There is also an AS section in the user group forum.

Hi, you've convinced me to try AS, as I like the idea that 'the learning curve is not as steep as that in FH7'. Thanks for that!

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

You can copy and paste citations.

Select the event on the Facts tab.
Go to the Sources For: pane and select the citation.
Use the icon in the toolbar of the Sources For: pane to copy the citation.
Go to the individual you wish to copy the citation to.
Go to their Facts tab.
Select the event.
Use the icon in the toolbar of the Sources For: pane to past the citation.

Thanks Bill, but as far as I can tell from following the above instructions, it doesn't work, presumably as there are no citations to actually copy. See attachment. The reason that there aren't any to copy is that I haven't been able to create any (my ignorance) in the first place. I just wanted to copy what I have in Word eg a piece of text taken from footnotes that I'd created when typing notes. For example this is just one (doesn't relate to the person in the attachment) :

Henry A. M. Smith, ‘The Orange Quarter and the First French Settlers in South Carolina’, The South Carolina Historical and Genealogical Magazine, Vol. 18, (Jul. 1917), p. 102 https://www.jstor.org/stable/27569429 [accessed 19 Jun 2023]

Now the only place I can find that will allow me to paste this seems to be in 'notes' as I can't find a way of making it appear like that from a template and to even try to create it from a template would take forever. A direct copy and paste from Word into the notes for the actual event to which it refers, would take just a few seconds. Also there doesn't seem to be templates for a lot of things that I would need, so I presume I'd have to create new ones for those anyway, including the above mentioned.

I do want to learn how to use templates eventually, but all those different types of boxes showing different things are so confusing. I think this is where my problem lies. I just don't understand what all the boxes are for. I always like to include the appropriate repository, but some boxes don't let you do that, some say both Source and Citation so I'm not sure whether it's for the Source or the Citation, or both. I don't understand the expression 'Source Citation' as a Source is a Source, and a Citation is a Citation, so I don't know what information they're asking for.

I did try to use a birth index template for the person below, but it wouldn't let me specify a Quarter, ie in the date box I put in Dec Q 1906, but it didn't like it, so I just left it as 1906. the next box was for Place, so I added Bristol, then the next was for a reference into which I added the Volume /Page numbers and mother's maiden name, and had to include the Quarter as well. However when it showed you the Footnote text, it read as '1906 Bristol Dec Q', whereas really it should read Dec Q 1906 Bristol or Bristol Dec Q 1906. The Quarter is part of the date so should be with it.

I'm not sure I'll ever get the hang of this, but I'd like to try!

Thanks.

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[TheGarlickyKnitter]

To work manually, you must open the Property Box of each of the 7 household members in turn.
Then on the Facts tab, add the Census Event, and Occupation Attribute if relevant, and perhaps Birth Event details.
For each new fact use the Add Citation button shown on the left of Bill's screenshot and choose Cite Existing Source...
Ensure you keep choosing the same Source record so that all the facts share the same Source Citation.
(The Automatic Source Citation feature automates the linking of the Source Citation but you must still add all the facts.)
With a household of 7 people that is quite a tediously repetitive process but it is worth understanding the method.

Thanks Mike, I understand that now and did manage to do it. As I said to Bill just now, I don't get the expression 'Source Citation' as to me they are two different things and when boxes appear with both words written in them, I'm not sure what information is needed ie the Source, the Citation or both. Also with repositories, it says I have to choose one from a list but if the repository in question isn't listed (as is usually the case), then it won't let me add a new one. Ideally I'd like to be able to make a master list of repositories, but I have no idea if that can be done or indeed how

Having performed that manual process you will appreciate the efficiency of Ancestral Sources (AS).
Effectively, you transcribe the details from the Census into a tabular grid within AS.
That forms the basis of the Text From Source box transcript and AS automatically creates the Source Citation and links it to the Census Events, Occupation Attributes and Birth Event details that AS automatically creates for each of the 7 people.

Am I correct in understanding then that to get the blue links that appear on people's names in a Census transcript, it needs to be created using Ancestral Sources, and that it won't work using just FH?

I suggest you do NOT start discussing Source Templates here until you understand the fundamental processes above.

I'm inclined to agree, but I want the footnotes text to appear as I would like it to appear, and there doesn't seem to be anyway around it apart from copying and pasting the info from Word into the Notes bit for each event.

Thanks again
Rosemary

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

In the example you have posted there are, as you say, no Citations / Sources associated with the Baptism Fact. At the bottom of the right hand pane there is a single "active" icon (bottom left) - when you hover over it the text says "Add Source Citation". This opens a Sources window where you can select an existing Source record or add a new one.

Thanks for your reply. I have just tried that and did reasonably well until I got to the stage of trying to complete the Template box which is greyed out and won't let me put anything in it. Even if I could type into it I wouldn't know what to put! I clicked on the cog at the end of the box and then 'Go to Source Template Record, which opened a box saying Not Applicable. See attached.

Also I don't know why it's asking me to fill in citation information for the Source. I don't want to have a different source for every Registration District in which I have ancestors. Surely that can just be filled in as and when I want to cite the references for the actual certificates??

Creating a source.JPG (71.05 KiB) Viewed 436 times

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

I would strongly recommend that you try out Ancestral Sources - it makes things very significantly easier and quicker than doing it in Family Historian. When starting out with FH I actually found it easier to understand sources and citations by looking at the data created by AS.

The author is a very active presence on these forums and responds to suggestions and issues far quicker than Calico Pie do to FH issues. There are a lot of users of the add-on on these forums (it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of users who are active on these forums use AS) who can give help and advice to it's use.

Ah OK, I will brave that over the weekend and see what happens, thanks!

[tatewise]

Rosemary, IMO you are trying to run before you can walk. Take things a bit more slowly.
FH is a steep learning curve for the things you are trying to achieve.
Think how long it took to learn to use all the Ancestry features, and be aware that FH has far more features.

Regarding Dates, a limited set of allowed formats exists.
To discover those formats, double-click in any Date box to open the Date Entry Assistant, and there you will find a Quarter Date option where to enter the December Quarter you must use Q4 1906.

At this stage don't worry too much about the citation format, just get used to adding Source Citations.
The concepts are different to Ancestry. Did you see my explanation of Sources versus Citations on Thu 27th Jul 2023 14:09?
We can discuss how to format citations once you have mastered the basic concepts.

Most of the FH Source Templates are designed to cite one single document: BMD Certificate, Census Household, etc.
Although in your screenshot the tab says Citation, underneath it says Source Record, as in my explanation, which you don't seem to have digested.

When linking a Repository there is an option to create a New one.

Anything that AS creates can also be created manually directly in FH, but it may take a few more key strokes.

You seem to be ignoring my advice to use the Family Historian Sample Project to experiment.
It already has Source records with Source Citations and Repositories that you can play with &/or create new ones. Also, you can experiment with AS without risking damaging your master project.

[NickWalker]

Am I correct in understanding then that to get the blue links that appear on people's names in a Census transcript, it needs to be created using Ancestral Sources, and that it won't work using just FH?

Hi Rosemary

Ancestral Sources doesn't do anything that couldn't be done manually in Family Historian. It allows you to enter data more quickly so you can spend more time researching rather than recording. It also adds a consistency to the way data is recorded.

If you edit Source Text in Family Historian you can use the Add Link to Individual Record... to create the hyper-links that AS can (optionally) create for you.

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Best wishes

Nick

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

Ancestral Sources doesn't do anything that couldn't be done manually in Family Historian. It allows you to enter data more quickly so you can spend more time researching rather than recording. It also adds a consistency to the way data is recorded.

Ok Nick I understand that, thanks.

If you edit Source Text in Family Historian you can use the Add Link to Individual Record... to create the hyper-links that AS can (optionally) create for you.

However, when I follow your instructions above, I don't get an Add Link to Individual Record option. This is what I got and as you can see, there is no icon. I just don't understand why things that are supposed to happen, don't.

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[tatewise]

Rosemary, make the window wider by dragging its border to reveal the icons.

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

Rosemary, IMO you are trying to run before you can walk. Take things a bit more slowly.
FH is a steep learning curve for the things you are trying to achieve.
Think how long it took to learn to use all the Ancestry features, and be aware that FH has far more features.

Hi Mike, I did spend yesterday making a new basic tree from scratch and it was a doddle, until I started on the infernal citations.

Regarding Dates, a limited set of allowed formats exists.
To discover those formats, double-click in any Date box to open the Date Entry Assistant, and there you will find a Quarter Date option where to enter the December Quarter you must use Q4 1906.

OK, thanks. Just tried that and it works.

At this stage don't worry too much about the citation format, just get used to adding Source Citations.
The concepts are different to Ancestry. Did you see my explanation of Sources versus Citations on Thu 27th Jul 2023 14:09?
We can discuss how to format citations once you have mastered the basic concepts.

I do understand the difference between the two. I worked in archives for several years and was involved with CALM when it first came out. What I don't understand is how FH expects you to record this information. There are so many different boxes that seem to ask for the same things and it's Hobson's Choice as to whether you choose the right box, which probably why I get boxes with greyed-out icons, or indeed missing icons. See attached, which is the box I used to add the above mentioned Quarter to the Year. It has this grey box at the top which says Un-named Source Template and when I click on the dots at the end, it says Go to Source Template Record. I click on that and it says 'not applicable'. What am I supposed to do with it?

Most of the FH Source Templates are designed to cite one single document: BMD Certificate, Census Household, etc.
Although in your screenshot the tab says Citation, underneath it says Source Record, as in my explanation, which you don't seem to have digested.

I understand your first sentence, but the second one is confusing me. Why would the tab say Citation, when what it actual means is a Source?

When linking a Repository there is an option to create a New one.
Anything that AS creates can also be created manually directly in FH, but it may take a few more key strokes.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to create a Master list of both repositories and sources, then just select the ones I want to use, then type in the citation. That's the only way I can see it being anywhere near as quick as copying and pasting the whole thing from Word into the relevant event note. It's taking me me hours just to create one complete reference and even then something goes wrong with it.

You seem to be ignoring my advice to use the Family Historian Sample Project to experiment.
It already has Source records with Source Citations and Repositories that you can play with &/or create new ones. Also, you can experiment with AS without risking damaging your master project.

I wasn't ignoring your advice, as what I have imported into FH is purely for experimentation and can be played about with. My original trees are quite safe! The problem with using the Sample Project is that the work has already been done, and I want to learn how to do it for myself. The SP is great for showing WHAT can be achieved, but it doesn't show me HOW I can achieve those things on my own tree.

Thanks for your patience!

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[BillH]

Rosemary,

I am going to step out of this topic as I think you are probably better off only working with one person and Mike is much more knowledgeable than me on Family Historian. If you decide you want to ask me a question in the topic I would be happy to try and help.

Good luck. Persevere and I'm sure eventually it will all come together for you.

Bill

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

Like you, I had a hard time getting my head around using sources and citations when I first started with FH, but now I use AS and have spent a lot of time with FH, I finally understand, so I do feel your frustration. FH handles things differently than other genealogy software, but once you get it, you'll hopefully find it way better.
As for my blog, if you put Family Historian in the Search, you'll see the posts in which it's mentioned. Likewise for Ancestral Sources.

It's a nightmare, nothing seems logical about the way sources and citations are added. I did look at your blog before, but wasn't sure what I was looking for so I'll do a search for FH and AS. Thank you!

[tatewise]

Do not assume that the CALM concepts of Sources and Citations are the same as FH uses, because the FH terms are derived from the GEDCOM definition, which I tried to explain earlier, so go back and study what I said and also the advice given in Learn about Source-Driven Data Entry.

Do you understand the distinction between Source Records and Citation-specific details?
Perhaps if you describe what you think they are in FH terms then we can set on the right track.

In the Citation window screenshots that litter this thread, there are always two sections.
One is labelled Source Record with a [Record Id] and often says how many Citations it has.
The other is the Citation-specific details for one of those potentially many Citations.

I don't know how you created the 'England and Wales Birth Registration Index' Source Record with an unnamed template.
Perhaps, you have deleted the Source Template by mistake.
Anyway, I suggest you delete that Source Record. Do you know how to do that?
Start again by using Generic Source Records initially and leave Templated Sources until you have grasped the basic concepts of Sources and Citations in FH terminology.
I agree that in some windows FH confuses the terms, but when you understand the Fact ~ Citation ~ Source relationships those anomalies will become irrelevant.

[fhtess65]

Or just send me an email - gentje1965 AT gmail DOT com, and I can send you the links to my posts mentioning FH and AS.

Like you, I had a hard time getting my head around using sources and citations when I first started with FH, but now I use AS and have spent a lot of time with FH, I finally understand, so I do feel your frustration. FH handles things differently than other genealogy software, but once you get it, you'll hopefully find it way better.
As for my blog, if you put Family Historian in the Search, you'll see the posts in which it's mentioned. Likewise for Ancestral Sources.

It's a nightmare, nothing seems logical about the way sources and citations are added. I did look at your blog before, but wasn't sure what I was looking for so I'll do a search for FH and AS. Thank you!

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

Rosemary, make the window wider by dragging its border to reveal the icons.

Thank you, I've finally got something to work!

[TheGarlickyKnitter]

Rosemary,
I am going to step out of this topic as I think you are probably better off only working with one person and Mike is much more knowledgeable than me on Family Historian. If you decide you want to ask me a question in the topic I would be happy to try and help.
Good luck. Persevere and I'm sure eventually it will all come together for you.
Bill

Hi Bill, that's fine and thanks very much for your help and patience! I've started using AS and it certainly seems a lot easier to understand than FH.
Best wishes
Rosemary