Family Historian User Group

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ID:4198

Sarah,

Surely the whole point of this list and it's Wish List is to give ALL users an opportunity to have their say on the problems and potential improvements about Family Historian.

Over the last few days you have swamped the list with numerous complex statements and have been rather curt with anyone who disagrees with YOUR opinion. You have also added items to the Wish List which the majority of users will ignore simply because of their complexity and the fact that there are other, easier, ways of achieving the ultimate goal of recording our Family Trees.

Please, if you are so keen to have FULL Gedcom compliance, then please switch to Family Tree Maker 2010 which is made by the people who created the Gedcom standard.

In the meantime, please give everyone else a break and remember that it is the Christmas season - Goodwill to all men etc !

Regards

Bilko

Bilko said:
Please, if you are so keen to have FULL Gedcom compliance, then please switch to Family Tree Maker 2010 which is made by the people who created the Gedcom standard.

I don't think FTM has anything to do with the Latter Day Saints who created the GEDCOM standard.

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Items for the wish list don't need a vetting before being included. However discussions to clarify the item and suggest alternatives and/or work arounds do happen.

Some items on the list are nearly impossible to implement or are very esoteric or specific to a single user. That hasn't stopped previous items being included.

As for Bilko's comment about the complexity of your items, I don't think that is the case. Some do tend towards more complete source documentation than most users might carry out, but others are to do with making FH a better program to use.

FH is supposed to be 100% gedcom compliant so Sarah has a right to request changes that ensure it stays that way.

I think its fair enough that a request for a wishlist item request should be discussed, judged and clarified before being added to the wishlist. I lose count of the number of times that people have asked for a wishlist item which has either a) already got a perfectly good alternative solution that once pointed out the originator of the query has dropped the request or b) already exists on the wish list in some other format. Jane does a tremendous job fielding these requests and she has to get her head around the issue first so she can adequately explain it in the wishlist itself.

I like this forum because there are discussions for everyone, personally I don't get interested in reading about basic problems people are having (though I often try to help), if that was all that was on here I would stop using the site.

People do get very defensive of Family Historian if it appears that someone is regularly criticising it but it is the nature of a forum that people will tend to post faults or problems rather than posting about things that are going well.

Even though I've not agreed with all of the threads that Sarah has posted, I have found most of them well thought through and the follow up discussions of interest.

re top scoring items:
It's worth remembering you are only seeing the items not completed.

With complex wish list items such as many of yours I need to ensure that the meaning is clear before I add it to the list.

Hence confirming you want to show the cause field on all facts on the fact tab.

I have tried over the last few years to make this site a useful resource for Family Historian Users, keeping moderation to a minimum.

I am sorry that you don't find this site up to your standards.

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Sarah,

Please don't go back to lurking!

This is an open forum, everyone has their own opinion, but there's no Mafia here... We all have our own perspectives and agendas. I have enjoyed a lot of your recent posts, some are spot on, some I disagree with, some about things I don't care about, some I do but wouldn't have put it like that, but in any case, as I said somewhere else, it wouldn't be half so much fun if we all agreed with each other all the time.

As for the wish list, (and indeed everything else on here) it's not an official Calico Pie 'to do' list, it's just a way for us (who after all probably really only represent a small proportion of FH users) to highlight things we think would improve the product or make our lives easier. I'm sure Simon takes it seriously, but he is under no obligation to do anything about any of the items. He makes his own decisions about what goes in his product.

And I think it simply wouldn't work at all if it weren't moderated. Jane does a fantastic job (we'd all be lost without her), but of course she has her own point of view too, so sometimes we have to argue our case a bit. That all helps to clarify the requirement, and is generally IMHO a good thing. And often she (or someone else) will point out that you can do what you're asking for some other way, which all helps.

(With opologies to Strictly fans) Keeeeep posting.

Just to add to what others have said -- the discussion here about sometimes quite complex topics is always worthwhile for me to read, if not always immediately relevant. There are some of the suggestions that Sarah has made that I agree with, some I disagree with and some I simply don't care about one way or the other. But the to-and-fro of clarifications, challenges and counter-suggestions has given me a very good understanding of the issues, so my votes will at least be well informed!

Wish list items need to be discussed and clarified otherwise no-one would vote for them if they did not know what they meant.

I enjoy following the discussions too.

Sarah -- please accept this feedback in the spirit it is given -- that is, a bug report. [wink]

The problem with many of your messages is here is not what you are saying as much as how you are saying it.

The message you have been posting, in many variants, is:

'I don't see why Family Historian doesn't do things MY way'.

This manner of speaking begs a reply of 'well, if Family Historian doesn't do things YOUR way, then go write your own [expletive deleted] software that works the way YOU want it!'

When I am discussing a design issue, especially with the developer of the software, I want to make sure the developer knows that I understand they must have had a good reason for doing things the way they did, and the reason I am asking the question is that I don't understand what it is. If you read my posts, especially in the Gedcom Census forum, you'll see that usually takes me more words than 'I don't see why'. [grin]

Programming is not my specialty. My skill is in analyzing what already exists. When I approach any new piece of software or hardware, I want to learn how the designers meant it to work before I start to worry about how it could be improved or complain that it doesn't work the way I expected. Otherwise I am no better than someone who wants to hang a picture, and uses a screwdriver to put the nail into the wall, instead of choosing a hammer.

For me, the mere fact that something doesn't work the way I would have done it is a bonus, not a deficit. Perhaps the developers thought of something clever that wouldn't have occurred to me, had I been able to write the program the way I wanted. I want to find out what that clever thing is, so I can take advantage of the power I would have missed out on otherwise.

So I try to ask 'what is the advantage of designing this feature to work this way, or doing this task this way?' rather than posting 'I don't see why you did it this way!'

Your posts are quite abrupt, and they've given me a very bad impression, rather like when one's mother-in-law comes to visit and starts re-arranging all the cupboards and drawers because they aren't done the way she likes it.

Note that Jon Axtell often posts about things that he wishes worked better in Family Historian -- he has strong opinions about what a user interface should be like. At first I didn't see the value of some of his complaints, but after I had gained experience with FH, I began to see what he was talking about. Whether you agree with Jon's suggestions or not, they are well-thought-out, and provoke thought and consideration about what good design should be. One can learn things from his posts about how the program works now, so they have a value to the forum even when his suggestions aren't implemented.

Since making any changes runs the risk of introducing bugs, my motto is 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. I want the program to WORK, first and foremost, so I am willing to put up with a couple of bits here and there which Jon Axtell would say [probably rightly] are poor design -- I simply assume there must have been a reason for not doing it the elegant way in the first place, and look for a work-around for the bits I don't like. So I don't see the value of someone coming in and [seemingly] demanding that flags and named lists and keyword functions all be consolidated, just because you think things are untidy the way they are.

I don't demand a full cost-benefit analysis when you propose something, but without communicating what you think the benefit might be (apart from your own personal preference) to do something another way, your posts read like someone who rearranges the cupboard just to be tidy rather than someone who is truly interested in the function of the program.

By all means, post away -- but do try to show us you have considered the benefit to all the users of FH, and the cost to the developer of making a change -- and not just the benefit to yourself.

If you couch your ideas about design more in the abstract, and less in the style of 'this is the way *I* would have done it', it is easier to discuss the problem without feeling under personal attack when someone disagrees with you.

Jan

I think this is a very personal and undeserved attack.

I have not once criticised anyone on a personal level and wouldn't dream of it.

Forums and emails are notorious for being difficult to give and receive the right signals that normally we pick up in body language and voice tone etc. But could I just ask you to consider if you would really say this to me face?

I started this post trying to make light of it and come up with a friendly response to you but I find it very upsetting and my hands are shaking so much I cannot continue.

Sarah, I completely understand that YOU didn't mean to attack anyone. You have an idea, you write a quick post, you send it off into the world. It's your posting style. We are completely unalike, since I often fire something off, read it, say 'wait a second, that's not what I meant', and go back to edit it again. My style is my way. Yours is yours. Neither is best. We are different.

In real life, I can also fire ideas off quickly, without always thinking about how they might sound to someone else. And like you, I sometimes offend people when I don't mean to. I only posted what I did to explain why your manner of posting might be rubbing some people the wrong way. I wanted to give you the advantage of seeing things from a different point of view.

I am very sorry to give offense, because even though some of your posts have annoyed me, I had NO intention of attacking you personally. If I thought your posts had no value, I would not have posted my message at all.

I value your ideas and your participation here. I was just over commenting on your recent idea about ways to combine queries and reports, and saying that I liked the idea. Now you've gone and withdrawn your idea before I've even finished saying what a good idea it was.

I am used to fiction writing workshops, where the goal of all the participants is to have the stories which come out of the workshops be better for ALL the writers in the workshops. It is understood that if you say 'Jan, your story doesn't work for me, here's why' and offers a fix, then something is not working, and it needs my attention.

Here's the crucial part: It's also understood that I might come up with a completely different fix on my own, that is even better than the one you suggested to me. That doesn't mean that your suggested fix was no good. It was a crucial part of the path to the fix that I did choose. It has value. Without your suggestion, I wouldn't have gotten to my solution.

That is where I am coming from when I say: learn to be a professional. Put your ideas on the table, and allow others to comment. If someone disagrees, they are not making a personal attack on you. The very fact that they are disagreeing with you is a sign that you had something interesting to say.

Jan

Jan,

I have to say that IMHO your responses to Anonymous are (at the best interpretation I can put on them) patronising, and at the worst are personal criticism (offering to fix Sarah's behaviour, not Sarah's ideas). You've strayed from the cardinal rule of writing workshops: go for the ball, not the player (i.e. comment on the work, not the author). To which I would add -- in an online context -- always give the benefit of the doubt.

Sarah, I do hope you haven't taken your ball home permanently -- your ideas are provoking discussion, in all our inimitable styles.

No doubt our moderators will tell me if I'm out of line with this.

I'd suggest that if one has to criticise someone else's behaviour it is best via email or direct messages rather than through a forum where it can feel rather like it did at school when someone had a go at you with everyone watching!

Anyway Sarah seems to have deleted her membership and taken all her messages with her (making some of the threads look like we're holding conversations on our own!) so there's not much that can be done now.

Well, it appears from a note she made to me privately, she has deleted her profile. It's ironic that she was doing so at the same time I was writing a message where I was praising one of her ideas.

I found her 'I don't see why' comments to Simon Orde quite rude. I value the ability to talk directly to the developer -- and I've seen too many forums where the developers stop participating because of the volume of whining and bitching from people whose attitude is 'gimmie gimmie gimmie' and 'do it my way'.

So I freely confess to having no patience with people who come along and say, in so many words, 'you didn't design the program the way I wanted it'.

If it is right for Bilko to say that Sarah's messages are too abrupt, and for you to say that I am out of line -- as I think it is -- why shouldn't that apply equally to everyone?

Jan

Perhaps you are right, Nick, but if I had done that, how would Nobody have had the benefit of seeing all of you coming along afterwards to say what a brute I have been? [wink]

I'll go hang my head in shame now.

Jan (slayer of newbies)

I am going to lock this thread now as I feel it's probably best.

I will leave it here till tomorrow and then move it to a quiet corner.