I think I have just about got my head round this one but....
I have a Marriage Cert.
(1) The source document is the certificate.
(2) The source in FH is an extract from the certificate showing the relevant details
I can add the Sources (2) to individual records (e.g., the bride (4) and the groom (5))
I can complete the Citation details (3) for those sources added to individuals (4 & 5) - but that seems to be a repeat of some of the information already recorded in the Source (2)
I now ant to add in all the other links because the Marriage Cert provides a wealth of information about places, parents and occupations:
So... in addition to the above how should I deal (if at all) with the following:
(6) A link to the Groom's Father
(7) A link to the Bride's Father
(8) A link or some kind of reference to the Place of Registration
(9) A Link or some kind of reference to the Groom's Residence
(10) A Link or some kind of reference to the Bride's Residence
(11) A link to the Groom's Father's Occupation
(12) A link to the Brides' Father's Occupation
After (4) and (5) I get the feeling I am drowning... Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Ric
ID:3780
* Marriage Sources and Citations
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PeterR
- Megastar
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- Location: Northumberland, UK
Marriage Sources and Citations
Ric,
You may wish to avoid 'over-egging the pudding', but I think the following are all possible, but by no means required - up to you how much detail you record. If your Source (2) includes all the text, then in some cses it may help to repeat just the relevant portion of the text in each citation; I presume you've done that for (4) & (5).
For (6) and (7) add the two fathers as Individuals (if not in your tree already), then you can add Source (2) to each of them, e.g. as source for the whole record if appropriate. You can also add an Occupation for each father and again add Source (2), and the relvant date, to each, which takes care of (11) & (12). For (8) you can use the records window or the Property-box All tab for Source (2) to add Data, i.e. Events Recorded, i.e. Marriage, to which you can add Place. For (9) & (10) you can use the Individual Property-box Facts tab to add a Residence for each of the Groom & Bride, and again add the Source to each. I hope this helps, and expect that others may have other suggestions.
You may wish to avoid 'over-egging the pudding', but I think the following are all possible, but by no means required - up to you how much detail you record. If your Source (2) includes all the text, then in some cses it may help to repeat just the relevant portion of the text in each citation; I presume you've done that for (4) & (5).
For (6) and (7) add the two fathers as Individuals (if not in your tree already), then you can add Source (2) to each of them, e.g. as source for the whole record if appropriate. You can also add an Occupation for each father and again add Source (2), and the relvant date, to each, which takes care of (11) & (12). For (8) you can use the records window or the Property-box All tab for Source (2) to add Data, i.e. Events Recorded, i.e. Marriage, to which you can add Place. For (9) & (10) you can use the Individual Property-box Facts tab to add a Residence for each of the Groom & Bride, and again add the Source to each. I hope this helps, and expect that others may have other suggestions.
Marriage Sources and Citations
Hi Peter and thanks for your reply.
The Occupation field that appears on the Main tab has always seemed to me to be an anomaly. In the past many of my ancestors changed occupation; these days this is perhaps even more the case for many individuals.
GEDCOM Census rather nicely puts in an occupation and links it to the census source record. This to me is ideal because the census is a snapshot in time and, at that time, the occupation was recorded.
The same is true-ish for a son's or daughter's wedding: the occupation is largely the occupation at that time. For me I'd like to add those occupations at that specific date and cite the Marriage Source as the provider of that information.
So the question is 'where best to add the marriage record of the son or daughter as source?' The census is a snapshot for sure; the wedding of a son or daughter also is a snapshot of the occupation of the fathers - but more than just a snapshot because the father-son and father daughter relationship endures over time. Hence my comment about the connection being 'true-ish'.
GEDCOM Census seems to add a fact for Occupation and adds the Citation to the Census Source. It doesn't even bother with the additional citation fields. The nice thing about this approach is that the event appears in the timeline.
You said:
Ditto for the residence of the fathers at that time... so (8), (9) and (10) simply follow in in the same vein.
By the way... Place and Address. Which to use and what's the distinction?
Thanks for your help.
Ric
Yes, I have done exactly that....then in some cases it may help to repeat just the relevant portion of the text in each citation; I presume you've done that for (4) & (5)
Yes I can see the whole record would be appropriate here for linking the Source - the fathers have this connection with their issue throughout their lives, but see next regarding occupation.For (6) and (7) add the two fathers as Individuals (if not in your tree already), then you can add Source (2) to each of them, e.g. as source for the whole record if appropriate.
The Occupation field that appears on the Main tab has always seemed to me to be an anomaly. In the past many of my ancestors changed occupation; these days this is perhaps even more the case for many individuals.
GEDCOM Census rather nicely puts in an occupation and links it to the census source record. This to me is ideal because the census is a snapshot in time and, at that time, the occupation was recorded.
The same is true-ish for a son's or daughter's wedding: the occupation is largely the occupation at that time. For me I'd like to add those occupations at that specific date and cite the Marriage Source as the provider of that information.
So the question is 'where best to add the marriage record of the son or daughter as source?' The census is a snapshot for sure; the wedding of a son or daughter also is a snapshot of the occupation of the fathers - but more than just a snapshot because the father-son and father daughter relationship endures over time. Hence my comment about the connection being 'true-ish'.
GEDCOM Census seems to add a fact for Occupation and adds the Citation to the Census Source. It doesn't even bother with the additional citation fields. The nice thing about this approach is that the event appears in the timeline.
You said:
I think what I'm after is just that for the event of the son's or daughter's wedding. So perhaps is it best not to link the source to the whole record after all but link just to a new Occupation fact? Or does it matter because if the source was indeed added to the whole record it's already there when the Occupation fact is added?You can also add an Occupation for each father and again add Source (2), and the relvant date, to each, which takes care of (11) & (12)
Ditto for the residence of the fathers at that time... so (8), (9) and (10) simply follow in in the same vein.
By the way... Place and Address. Which to use and what's the distinction?
Thanks for your help.
Ric
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PeterR
- Megastar
- Posts: 1129
- Joined: 10 Jul 2006 16:55
- Family Historian: V7
- Location: Northumberland, UK
Marriage Sources and Citations
Ric,
You are of course free to add source citations to as many records (e.g. Individuals) and/or 'fields' (e.g. Occupations) as you like. I would do whatever you find useful, and suggest that it is best to adopt a consistent approach throughout your tree.
There are numerous approaches to the use of Place, and the subject is often hotly debated. My family is mostly from England, so I generally just put ',' into the Place field, or just '' if the county is obvious or irrelevant, e.g. for Leicester or London, or 'district>,,', if that is clearer; I add '...,' for places outside England. Again, I would do what you find most useful. The Place List Dialog (Tools...Work with Data > Places...) is useful for standardization of Places.
I generally only put street address & house number, etc., into the Address field, but again you can do whatever you find useful, including complete postal address details, including Postcode/Zipcode, and indeed telephone numbers, etc., which can be particularly useful for Repositories.
You are of course free to add source citations to as many records (e.g. Individuals) and/or 'fields' (e.g. Occupations) as you like. I would do whatever you find useful, and suggest that it is best to adopt a consistent approach throughout your tree.
There are numerous approaches to the use of Place, and the subject is often hotly debated. My family is mostly from England, so I generally just put ',' into the Place field, or just '' if the county is obvious or irrelevant, e.g. for Leicester or London, or 'district>,,', if that is clearer; I add '...,' for places outside England. Again, I would do what you find most useful. The Place List Dialog (Tools...Work with Data > Places...) is useful for standardization of Places.
I generally only put street address & house number, etc., into the Address field, but again you can do whatever you find useful, including complete postal address details, including Postcode/Zipcode, and indeed telephone numbers, etc., which can be particularly useful for Repositories.
Marriage Sources and Citations
Many thanks,
I believe I have this worked out now. It's more a case of determining a strategy that at least stands some chance of enduring so that, as you correctly say, data is entered consistently.
I have used the (Tools...Work with Data > Places...) option and at one time got myself into a mess because I intended all the data to be uploaded to PhpGedView which I use on my website. I even went to the extent of introducing leading commas and spaces to ensure I consistently ended up with Country in the 4th place. In fact it was a waste of time - but the lesson was learnt - try to get it right before entering too much data!
I have done some work on a test project and the results seem promising so thank you for the guidance and the helpful tips. In the end I decided not to attach the wedding source for the child to the whole record of the parent and chose the more specific option of creating an Occupation fact for the Parent and linking that to the wedding of the child. This is overall cleaner when there are multiple marriages! After all - it's only the address and occupation of the parent as a snapshot in time that's important.
Kind regards,
Ric
I believe I have this worked out now. It's more a case of determining a strategy that at least stands some chance of enduring so that, as you correctly say, data is entered consistently.
I have used the (Tools...Work with Data > Places...) option and at one time got myself into a mess because I intended all the data to be uploaded to PhpGedView which I use on my website. I even went to the extent of introducing leading commas and spaces to ensure I consistently ended up with Country in the 4th place. In fact it was a waste of time - but the lesson was learnt - try to get it right before entering too much data!
I have done some work on a test project and the results seem promising so thank you for the guidance and the helpful tips. In the end I decided not to attach the wedding source for the child to the whole record of the parent and chose the more specific option of creating an Occupation fact for the Parent and linking that to the wedding of the child. This is overall cleaner when there are multiple marriages! After all - it's only the address and occupation of the parent as a snapshot in time that's important.
Kind regards,
Ric
Marriage Sources and Citations
Hi ricm
might I suggest that you get yourself a copy of a small booklet called 'Where to Record It In Family Historian'
This booklet from my-history.co.uk gives detailed advice on what and where to record Birth, Marriage and Death Certificate data and is my constant companion when I am working in FH
Hope this helps
jfsmith
might I suggest that you get yourself a copy of a small booklet called 'Where to Record It In Family Historian'
This booklet from my-history.co.uk gives detailed advice on what and where to record Birth, Marriage and Death Certificate data and is my constant companion when I am working in FH
Hope this helps
jfsmith
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ChrisBowyer
- Superstar
- Posts: 389
- Joined: 25 Jan 2006 15:10
- Family Historian: None
Marriage Sources and Citations
Ignoring the detail for the moment, my general principal is to add a citation to any piece of information to link it to every source of that information. The point being that you can come back later and answer the question 'how did I know that', and can refer back to the source to check conflicts. I wouldn't worry about duplicating citations, that's FH's problem not mine.
If I'm adding information from a marriage certificate for example, set up the citation however you like it, to the source, from one of the participants names (for example), click Copy Citation, then Tools > Set Automatic Source Citation > Paste Citation > Set Automatic.
Then record every piece of information on the certificate however you like to do it, ages, addresses, father's names, occupations, and so on. Anything new will automatically have the same citation, and if it simply confirms what you have already, select the Fact and press Paste Citation.
(and don't forget to Cancel Automatic Source Citation when you've finished).
If I'm adding information from a marriage certificate for example, set up the citation however you like it, to the source, from one of the participants names (for example), click Copy Citation, then Tools > Set Automatic Source Citation > Paste Citation > Set Automatic.
Then record every piece of information on the certificate however you like to do it, ages, addresses, father's names, occupations, and so on. Anything new will automatically have the same citation, and if it simply confirms what you have already, select the Fact and press Paste Citation.
(and don't forget to Cancel Automatic Source Citation when you've finished).
Marriage Sources and Citations
Hello Ric,
I've looked at the detail that you want to add and sympathise with the feeling of drowning - I've had the same (and still do). I'd like to help by showing an alternative view using FH4 {if using FH3 omit step 1}.
1. Scan the Certificate and add the scanned image using the Add Media facility. If you don't have a scanner then omit this stage.
2. Create a Source and give it the Certificate number (usually 3 letters & 6 numbers for England & Wales),
3. Using the Property Box Main tab, enter the date and place of marriage, then add a link to the Source,
4. Using the Property Box Facts tab, select the marriage event and enter the details which are relevant to the couple {this may include a joint address}.
5. If the individuals' age have not already been entered, then this should be done for each by selecting each as the person in focus,
6. If the couple were not living together, then their individual address may be added using the 'add fact' facility, as can occupation, condition etc.
7. In turn, select the Bride & Groom's fathers (or parents if both given) and 'add facts' to them as required - linking each to the Source. Repeat for the Witnesses if relevant.
8. (FH4) If facilities exist, you may like to add an image of the Church / registry Office etc to the one Source that you have created for this event. That image may also be linked to other events if applicable. If Wedding photos exist, then they may also be linked to the event and people - which has the advantage of getting FH4 to add the age of the individual to the 'link to face'.
In addition to the above, I always add a reference to the BMD index (if available ie after 1837 & before 2005). This is to provide consistency with those entries where I do not wish or need to purchase a copy of the original BMD certificate).
Using this process, you may note that there is very little duplication of data entered.
May I also add a point which I found confusing early on but that I have reached my own interpretation on. I use ONE source called 'Marriage Certificate'. When applying this Source to a Wedding, I set the assessment as Primary Evidence and 'Where within Source' as the Certificate number. When I find time to link the images to the relevant marriages, I will use Entry Date to be the date the information was entered (ie correct as of . . .).
Hope this helps
Bilko
I've looked at the detail that you want to add and sympathise with the feeling of drowning - I've had the same (and still do). I'd like to help by showing an alternative view using FH4 {if using FH3 omit step 1}.
1. Scan the Certificate and add the scanned image using the Add Media facility. If you don't have a scanner then omit this stage.
2. Create a Source and give it the Certificate number (usually 3 letters & 6 numbers for England & Wales),
3. Using the Property Box Main tab, enter the date and place of marriage, then add a link to the Source,
4. Using the Property Box Facts tab, select the marriage event and enter the details which are relevant to the couple {this may include a joint address}.
5. If the individuals' age have not already been entered, then this should be done for each by selecting each as the person in focus,
6. If the couple were not living together, then their individual address may be added using the 'add fact' facility, as can occupation, condition etc.
7. In turn, select the Bride & Groom's fathers (or parents if both given) and 'add facts' to them as required - linking each to the Source. Repeat for the Witnesses if relevant.
8. (FH4) If facilities exist, you may like to add an image of the Church / registry Office etc to the one Source that you have created for this event. That image may also be linked to other events if applicable. If Wedding photos exist, then they may also be linked to the event and people - which has the advantage of getting FH4 to add the age of the individual to the 'link to face'.
In addition to the above, I always add a reference to the BMD index (if available ie after 1837 & before 2005). This is to provide consistency with those entries where I do not wish or need to purchase a copy of the original BMD certificate).
Using this process, you may note that there is very little duplication of data entered.
May I also add a point which I found confusing early on but that I have reached my own interpretation on. I use ONE source called 'Marriage Certificate'. When applying this Source to a Wedding, I set the assessment as Primary Evidence and 'Where within Source' as the Certificate number. When I find time to link the images to the relevant marriages, I will use Entry Date to be the date the information was entered (ie correct as of . . .).
Hope this helps
Bilko
Marriage Sources and Citations
Hi, Many thanks! I have just ordered a copy.jfsmith said:
Hi ricm
might I suggest that you get yourself a copy of a small booklet called 'Where to Record It In Family Historian'
Regards,
Ric
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jmurphy
- Megastar
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- Joined: 05 Jun 2007 23:33
- Family Historian: V6.2
- Location: California, USA
- Contact:
Marriage Sources and Citations
May I add my voice to what Chris Bowyer says -- the Auto Source Citation makes entering data and keeping track of where it came from very simple.
Just remember to turn it off when you are done!
When I was trained as a researcher (not in genealogy, in a different field), this is how I was taught -- one starts by recording the source material first -- the extraction and analysis of the data is done afterwards.
So in Family Historian, I create the source first, turn on Auto-Source Citation, and then I enter the data, letting Family Historian flag the data I've entered with the citations as I go. (Or, as Chris said, pasting the Auto Citation to facts where my new source agrees with the information previously found.)
This seems backwards when compared to the way most other software encourages one to work -- enter data first, attach source afterwards -- but when you get used to it, starting with the source and letting FH do the grunt work of attaching the citations is FAR less tedious!
As for which details to record and how, let your principle be, what will be clear to you when you return to the data?
For instance, in the US, in the Census Data for some years they recorded the country of origin of the person's parents. For heads of household where I had no information about their parents, I started out creating the parents' entries with the birthplace, giving then census record as the citation. Over time, I decided that was too confusing, because when I looked back at the data, my citation was giving me the impression that the parent was actually in the household. So I decided to make an entry, e.g. 'father's birthplace England, mother's birthplace Germany' as a note attached to the person's census entry instead. That allows me to find the information if I need it, without suggesting the parent actually appeared by name in that source.
Hope this helps.
Jan
Just remember to turn it off when you are done!
When I was trained as a researcher (not in genealogy, in a different field), this is how I was taught -- one starts by recording the source material first -- the extraction and analysis of the data is done afterwards.
So in Family Historian, I create the source first, turn on Auto-Source Citation, and then I enter the data, letting Family Historian flag the data I've entered with the citations as I go. (Or, as Chris said, pasting the Auto Citation to facts where my new source agrees with the information previously found.)
This seems backwards when compared to the way most other software encourages one to work -- enter data first, attach source afterwards -- but when you get used to it, starting with the source and letting FH do the grunt work of attaching the citations is FAR less tedious!
As for which details to record and how, let your principle be, what will be clear to you when you return to the data?
For instance, in the US, in the Census Data for some years they recorded the country of origin of the person's parents. For heads of household where I had no information about their parents, I started out creating the parents' entries with the birthplace, giving then census record as the citation. Over time, I decided that was too confusing, because when I looked back at the data, my citation was giving me the impression that the parent was actually in the household. So I decided to make an entry, e.g. 'father's birthplace England, mother's birthplace Germany' as a note attached to the person's census entry instead. That allows me to find the information if I need it, without suggesting the parent actually appeared by name in that source.
Hope this helps.
Jan