* Question re Ancestry FreeBMD Marriage Index

[davidm_uk]

When looking for a marriage in the Ancestry.co.uk FreeBMD Index and I have found an entry that might be relevant, click on

the View Record link, and then on the (click to see others on page) link, should I expect to see the spouse listed on that

same page, or are their circumstances where the spouse might be on an adjacent page, or even many pages away?

I do understand that these indexes aren't fully transcribed yet, but just unsure what the significance of the 'page number' is.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

Many thanks, David.

ID:2695

[RalfofAmber]

I often get the spouse, or indeed several people listed male and female from which I have to do more research.

I also (maybe 20%) get no further information which I have put down to the transcribing being incomplete, though your next page idea is possibly a good one.

I would persevere, over a large number of people you should get lots of spouses this way

[Jane]

A page on the Marriage registers, contains two marriages, so in all transcriptions are done correctly, you should get two male and two female names on any given page number.

[davidm_uk]

Thanks Jane, that's what I'd assumed at first, but the I've seen pages with more than 4 people, pages with odd numbers of people, pages with more men than women and vice versa.

I've also had a couple of orders for marriage certs bounced on the basis of a reference check, with the comment 'not married to each other', although they were on the same page.

That's why I thought I'd ask on here, to see what other's experiences were, on the basis that if I understand how the 'system' is supposed to work I might be able to play it to better effect.

Thanks again, David.

[stephenjones]

What Jane says is quite correct, although sometimes there may be more, but either way ideally there should be an equal number of males and females.
Where there isn't is due to the fact that
1) the transcripion isn't complete (although with marriages before 1900 that's getting to be unlikely) or
2) the GRO index is incomplete and only lists one of the couples (this seems to happen quite a lot).
You also have to remember that just because you have found a pair of names which appear to match it doesn't mean that those people actually married each other - if there are four names on the page it's a 50/50 probability! and if it's not the right couple then you need to look further afield.

[Jane]

There are at least two places I can think of which can cause the things you see, especially on earlier records, hand written numbers can be very difficult to read, this of course means one page on Free BMD could have 5 people and the 'similar looking page' could only have 3. Add to this the fact some one made the original index that adds another level of error creeping in.

Also you can have, especially with common surnames the likelihood of a Mary Smith and a John Jones on the same page, but marrying different people. This is especially likely when you are trying to get a cert based on the Man's full name and the woman's Christian name, I try to avoid this by always getting a childs birth certificate first.

[davidm_uk]

Thanks to all for your thoughts and experiences.

I shall now revisit some of my 'brickwalls' with some new ideas to try out.

David.

[davidm_uk]

A related question - some of the FreeBMD index images are handwritten but some are typed, so I assume that transcription errors could have happened at this stage. Are the original handwritten index pages still available anywhere (pref online) or were they destroyed after the typed ones had been produced?

David.

[Jane]

The typed ones are simply the latter pages, in my experience anyway.

Remember you can also get certificates from the Local Registry offices, if you know what church your ancestors married in. Depending on the registry office as some are more helpful than others, but I once phoned one to check a marriage cert I obtained from the GRO as it was not clear and the registrar went and got the original book and read the details out to me.

Remember the GRO certificates are, I believe actually copies of the originals.

It's also worth checking out the 'local registry transcription sites via UKBMD

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/

UKBMD:
There are two sets of Birth, Marriage and Death indexes in the UK; the original indexes held by the local register offices and a secondary index created by the General Register Office. The menu buttons on the left provide sets of links to web sites that contain both primary and secondary indexes. As always, you are recommended to look through the primary sources first, before looking through secondary records.

It's also worth if you have 'local' ancestors, checking out your record office, as they often have microfilmed copies of the church registers, and you can get copies at 50p rather than £7, but you have to look through the pages yourself, also remember to check out for an OPC project, the people who do these often know the village surnames and have good levels of quality.

I know both Devon and Dorset have excellent and growing OPC information.

[nsw]

[Edit: Sorry there is some overlap with Jane's answer. Jane posted while I was writing this.]

I'm not aware that they are available.

It is worth pointing out that the GRO indexes (which FreeBMD have indexed) are known to have a lot of errors. There are two books by Michael Whitfield Foster (''A Comedy of Errors' or The Marriage Records of England and Wales 1837-1899' and Act 2 (same title)).

He was given access to the certificates and checked a 1% sample of the marriage records and found lots of errors.

The blurb for the book says:

'If you have used the index of marriages, have you ever noticed that there are far more references to pages with odd numbers than to pages with even numbers ? Have you puzzled over a faint or illegible reference and wished there was something to help you decide what it ought to be ? Have you pored through the marriage index looking for a bride to match the reference details for the bridegroom yon have found ?. Have you perhaps had the disappointment of finding that the supposed partners were wrong after all and that you have done additional research to no avail ? Have you been unlucky enough to order a marriage certificate only to find that the reference was 'wrong', yet you could read it clearly enough ? Have you simply been unable to find an index entry for someone you know was married ? This book will throw light on all these questions and tell you far more besides. The story of the marriage records is a fascinating detective story.'

The errors he identified:

Omitted quarterly returns could well be between 50,000 and 350,000 marriages based on finding from Essex and Somerset analysis.

Marriages missed in the indexing could be at least 15,000

Individual entries missing from the index could be around 20,000

Variant/duplicate indexing could amount to 250,000 to 500,000 names.

Errors in names as indexed are many and could rival the variant names.

Names lost from the indexes through the typing process are certainly significant and impossible to quantify at this stage.

Names lost from least the handwritten fiche and film of all three indexes are of the order of 25,000 through frames missed in their production.

Errors of indexing (in volume/page numbers and district names), both in original indexing and through later typing, could range from 50,000 to 200,000.

There are many other errors in great variety, witnesses indexed, fathers indexed instead of sons, brides indexed with new names.

These estimates of errors may well be conservative. A million errors in the 1837/99 period are very probable.'

Sources for these quotes:

http://www.lfhhs.org.uk/help/factsh/lbmd.htm and http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.u ... errors.htm

Do look at the UK BMD website  as some counties are indexing the local register office records - making them far more reliable indexes. Cheshire, for example, has all (or nearly all) the 19th century certificates indexed.

There is a major project discussed here:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/about ... ents.asp#0

which should solve a lot of these problems when completed.

[philjo]

If the area you want is covered by UKBMD - e.g. Leeds mrraiages are almost complete up to 1950, then this site does show the names of both bride and groom, and also the name of the church/register office. For church weddings this allows you to then look up the relevant parish registers at the Record office/library without having to buy a certificate, which is useful especially for a common surname such as Smith.
Also for marriages up to 1901, do a doulbe check against the census to find the couple in the next census to check that the age/first names/ places of birth etc match whcat you have got. This can help to eliminate several possible marriage entries found in the GRO indexes.

Jeremy

[AnneEast]

In the early days of the GRO there were FOUR marriages to a page and therefore EIGHT individuals. Perhaps this is why you have sometimes seen more than two couples?

Personally I always use FreeBMD itself for these transcribed indexes. I find it much more user friendly than Ancestry in this case.

Anne

[nsw]

AnneEast said:
Personally I always use FreeBMD itself for these transcribed indexes. I find it much more user friendly than Ancestry in this case.

Yes me too. I believe that the Ancestry database gets updates later than FreeBMD's website too so that's another reason to use it. I'm happy to be corrected if anyone knows any different.

[davidm_uk]

I Agree with Anne and Nick, I always start with Ancestry's FreeBMD, then if not found Ancestry's GRO Index, then FreeBMD, then IGI via Family Search.

Interesting to see Anne's note about 4 weddings (ie 8 people)  per page on earlier entries.

Some (at least some of of the periods I'm interested in, eg marriages in 1840 in St Luke  Middlesex) of the GRO indexes in Ancestry are typed, so have obviously been transcribed from original handwritten records. If this transcription introduced errors, particularly with the first character(s) of a surname, then there's very little chance of finding the correct entry, hence my question about availability of original indexes.

Unfortunately none of the areas I'm interested in have had alternative transcriptions done by local groups (yet). I've now got two pretty solid (and much bloodied!) brick walls in my/my wife's ancestral paths around 1840/1850 in London/Middlesex.

I guess it's time to start physically visiting some local sources, provided they have got something better than the GRO transcriptions.

David [cry]

[nsw]

davidm_uk said:
I Agree with Anne and Nick, I always start with Ancestry's FreeBMD, then if not found Ancestry's GRO Index, then FreeBMD, then IGI via Family Search.

Just to clarify, that's not what I meant (or Anne I think). I use freebmd.org.uk rather than the Ancestry version of freebmd as freebmd has more flexible search options and gets the updates first I think.

[AnneEast]

Yes, Nick that's what I meant! FreeBMD is much better and is in fact the 'original' one. The transcribers' work is put on there first and later Ancestry display it. There has always been a bit of a time lag.

I presume Ancestry support the work of FreeBMD in order to be given the chance to use their work! It is after all free because the transcribers are volunteers!

Anne