* FHUG costs

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Jane
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FHUG costs

Post by Jane »

The Knowledge Curation post raised the issues of cost for FHUG

This what FHUG roughly costs and the donations and Amazon income from 2018 to today.

The costs do not include any charges for time spent maintaining, backing up and upgrading the site by anyone.

Current FHUG costs per annum:

Domain registration: £10
Hosting: £80 (Note 1)
Search service: £432 (Note 2)
Miscellaneous Software: £29 (Note 3)

Total: £551


Note 1: This is the cost of a suitable hosting service with the resilience, bandwidth and performance that FHUG requires, minus the cost that would be otherwise be incurred for co-hosted sites that have much lower requirements.

Note 2: The search service (algolia) we use charges on the basis of records added on FHUG (posts) plus the Knowledge Base (articles etc.) per month, plus the number of searches done per month. The number of searches is by far the dominant element in the cost. Since the search facility was introduced, we have managed to stay with 'free' extended limits, but we are now regularly approaching the limit; and we expect to be charged for the first time this month. This cost is based on our current expected usage (up to 35,000 searches per month), pro-rated for a year. On 17th of this month, we've already used 25,000 searches.

Note 3: Includes an annual cost for our spam filtering service and miscellaneous software bought for the Knowledge Base on a one off basis and averaged over 5 years.



FHUG donations history:

2018: £45 (4 donations)
2019: £95 (7 donations)
2020: £160 (10 donations)
2021: £10 (1 donation)

2022 (part) £95 (6 donations, 5 of which on 17 August)

Total Donations: £405
Less credit card charges: -£20
Less UK tax 20%: -£81



Amazon Payments for sales via the link on the donation page:
30 10 2020 Payment by Gift Certificate £26.08
30 03 2020 Payment by Gift Certificate £25.16
30 05 2019 Payment by Gift Certificate £25.35
30 12 2018 Payment by Gift Certificate £27.67
29 06 2018 Payment by Gift Certificate £26.67
30 01 2018 Payment by Gift Certificate £26.31
Total Amazon £157.24


Net 4 years 8 months income: £460
Average per annum: £99

There has been no other FHUG income.
Jane
My Family History : My Photography "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
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Mark1834
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by Mark1834 »

Thanks Jane - very interesting.

I suspect that the Amazon affiliate rate may be commercially confidential, but there will be plenty of folk reading this who routinely spend hundreds (or even thousands) of pounds/dollars with them every year, so even just everybody updating their Amazon shortcut will make a real difference.
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davidf
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by davidf »

Thanks Jane

Broadly you need to get about £500 per year in donations (net of charges and tax) to cover existing costs. You seem to be getting about £80+ net on average (over the last 4 years) through the donations line, and about £100 through the Amazon link. So FHUG is costing you (on average over the last four years) about £320 pa + plus your time!

Need £500 net per year:

Tax Grossing
£500 = 80% => £625 before "20% UK tax"
CC Charge Grossing (say 5%)
£625 = 95% => £658 before CC Charges and tax

Say £700 to allow for forthcoming inflation / indexing charges

(Is the UK Tax VAT and payable because it is "going through your books as Sales" rather than being seen as "expenses reimbursement" (i.e. no added value if the costs are not going through the books as expenses). Changing the situation may be more hassle than it is worth, but if a member is a practising accountant perhaps a little bit of pro bono advice might be offered?)

So what might be an indicative donation - taking account those who make minimal use, those who make heavy use but can't donate, and those who make heavy use but for some reason won't donate. And assuming heavy contributors are willing to contribute money as well as time.

Heavy Users

Based on post count (which will include deceased and moved on users):
Admin (Jane) 1 8000+ Posts
Megastars 1 25k+ Posts
Megastars 9 1000+ Posts
Megastars 11 500+ Posts
Superstars 19 250+ Posts
Famous 50+ 100+ Posts

Just looking at the Megastars and Superstars we have about 40 "heavy users"
If (big assumption - but we have never really asked so have to make a guess) for some reason say only half of us donate:
£700/20 is £35 on average each per year? So the suggested donation of "£5 to £20" may be under egging it at the top end of the range?

If other users chip in with occasional donations, a small balance may build up allowing other costs to be incurred to bring benefits.

I need to top up my donation.
David
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ColeValleyGirl
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Personal opinions follow:

I'm a bit wary of using posting volumes to 'target' potential donors as many of prolific posters are the people already doing 'heavy lifting'/contributing by answering queries and/or moderating and/or contributing technically. Being asked to donate for the privilege of being overworked might be a bit hard to take... Although I believe that many of them do donate.

Actually, I'm a bit wary of being too 'in the face' when asking for donations. I find it off-putting when I see it elsewhere, and doubly so in difficult days like these for many people.

P.S. Because the 'search costs' have only recently become material, the average income over the last 4-5 years has almost covered the monetary costs, even if it hasn't come in evenly. (I'm not about to embark on DCF calculations, before anyone suggests it!)
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by davidf »

I hope you don't feel that I am targetting people - I have no way of knowing who has or has not donated. And I would not want to see "begging letters" (or emails) going out to those who do a lot (or even to those who don't).

But given the costs and as you point out the potential rise due to search costs we have to be realistic and unfortunately occasional users are unlikely to contribute so we have to look to a few to each donate a modest amount rather than a lot contributing little amounts.

So it will be the regulars and (as I accept) some can't and some won't ("I contribute in other ways") so the "fair share" is inflated.

It is perhaps significant that by discussing this significant donations have come in today. "If you don't ask you won't get". I guess it's how you ask.
David
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LornaCraig
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by LornaCraig »

Ideally what is needed is something like the gentle reminder Nick uses in Ancestral Sources, where it occasionally pops up a message saying “you have now used Ancestral Sources to create nnnn census entries…If you have found this useful perhaps you would consider making a donation…” (or words to that effect).

I realise it may be impossible to set up in FHUG (I am not an IT expert) but is there any way in which users could be given a gentle nudge occasionally on the lines of “for your information you have now made 50 searches in the Knowledge Base….” or (on the basis that people who start new topics are usually asking for help) “you have now started 25 new topics in the forums… If you have found this site useful perhaps you would consider making a donation…” ?

For those who ask questions but rarely provide answers this might make them reflect on the help they have received.
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Mark1834
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by Mark1834 »

I like the approach used by both Wikipedia and the Guardian online. Gentle nudges rather than intrusive reminders. But they’ve both probably got bigger IT departments than FHUG!

I think lots of small contributions is better than relying on the “usual suspects” who already do most of the work. Maybe we need occasional reminders to prick wallets, timed to coincide with times when usage is higher, rather than now in the relatively quiet holiday period.
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mjashby
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by mjashby »

Perhaps specific pop-up reminders at specific times of year in the same way that Xmas Lights appear, but backed up with something a bit more informative and attractive to site users, as opposed to the current rather obscure/bland Donate page link/infromation e.g. see this example: https://linuxmint.com/donors.php
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BillH
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by BillH »

I don't know how other folks access the site, but I never go to the home page. My link is directly to the forum and if I need to see the Knowledge Base I use the link there.

The home page does have a donate link and a reference to the donations by shopping. The forum has neither of these. I'm thinking quite a few folks don't even know they can donate to the site.

Maybe adding some links to the main forum page would be helpful?

Just a thought.
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cwhermann
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by cwhermann »

I too rarely go to the home page. I did not go to Amazon to check, but do the donations through Amazon purchases also apply to purchase made through Amazon.com in US?
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arishmell
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by arishmell »

Am I missing something? The Knowledge Base article mentions donating via PayPal (my preferred option), debit/credit card or direct bank transfer. But when I actually go to checkout, there is no PayPal option.
Maureen

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Morrish, Rowd*n, Pike, Lowder, Flood, Parsons and others.
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by laz_gen »

My thoughts

Like others I had not given much thought to the cost of maintaining the website nor had I noticed the rather small link to the donate page.

Looking at the costs listed for the website the Algolia search fees seem to far outweigh the hosting costs by a factor of 4 or 5 and I do wonder if it is good value for money. Are there any cheaper options for an external search feature or even a search feature within the host, perhaps a suitable script, even if it had to search the forum and the knowledge base separately.

As to bringing the tender subject of donations to the membership I would suggest an automated posting once a month (or a manual one) reminding us all of how valuable FHUG is to us as a community and how just a small donation will help to keep it running.

A further thought perhaps would be to encourage those that have sent in a donation to create a reply to that monthly reminder so that others can see members donating and the whole donation process becomes normalised and not a tender subject to be somehow approached.

Perhaps the donation page could generate the "Thank You" posting automatically but with a private tick box for those that wish to remain anonymous. In that case the posting still goes ahead but with a thank you to the anonymous donor.

So to kick start that idea I would like to offer my thanks to Jane for all her hard work on the site and to say I have just sent in a small donation to help things along.

Robin
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Jane
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by Jane »

Firstly a huge thank you to all of you who have sent donations over the last few days.

To try and answer a few questions.

1. Paypal - I took paypal off as the transaction costs are pretty high compared with Stripe.

2. Searching - we implemented Algolia for searching as it is far better than the standard Forum search and is far far more effective the standard wordpress search. The reason for the high costs are that it is searching 100,000 posts and pages with thousands of searches every month. The free service is normally limited to 10,000, so I asked and was kindly allowed 100,000 item, which has kept the costs down. Going forward now that we have hit the 100,000 items point, I will need to start paying or move to another search system, but having taken a quick look at the market I have been unable to find anything which looks as good as most are designed for shopping/e-commerce sites. For interest try the Advanced search link at the top of the page to use the Forums software's own search. We could keep the costs down by not indexing older forum posts for instance, but the trouble is you never know what a new user might be looking for.

3. Amazon USA: As long as you follow the links it should count. I have no way of checking where any specific sales come from to be able to be 100% sure.

4. I would like to avoid some sort of suggested amount. Not all our regular users may have funds to spare, while some may feel they want to donate after a single post if someone helps them to recover their project or migrate it to FH.

I will have a think about how to track donations.
Perhaps a simple link the the top of the Forum pages might be enough.

It is possible we can reduce the costs over time, but it is always a trick of balancing expectations of users for example the complaints about the existing search engine and the amount of free time I have to develop or in Algolias case try and over-ride the standard javascript modules.
Jane
My Family History : My Photography "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad."
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by davidf »

Jane wrote: 18 Aug 2022 08:17 I will have a think about how to track donations.
Perhaps a simple link the the top of the Forum pages might be enough.
Do you mean "track"? Or is it a typo for "attract"?

How many of us use the email notification of Forum Posts? For me it is the main way that I get prompted to go to the forum - and I have globally subscribed to a number (but not all) of the sub-forums. No notification means I don't notice the topic or post.

I admit I rarely read such notifications, "muscle memory" taking me straight to the click to read link, but even with a plain text email, you can disrupt that occasionally (permanently and we just learn to ignore it) with a text box, like

************************************************************
* The FHUG forum relies on volunteers
* to administer the system
* To contribute Knowledge Base articles and
* To respond to user posts
* It also relies on donations to cover the costs
*
* Could you occasionally go to the donate page and consider helping?
* Thanks
************************************************************

I think the above link could also usefully be part of the standard header or footer of every KB page.
David
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davidf
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by davidf »

laz_gen wrote: 18 Aug 2022 06:03 My thoughts
...
Looking at the costs listed for the website the Algolia search fees seem to far outweigh the hosting costs by a factor of 4 or 5 and I do wonder if it is good value for money. Are there any cheaper options for an external search feature or even a search feature within the host, perhaps a suitable script, even if it had to search the forum and the knowledge base separately.
...
I have started a new topic on FHUG Search almost as part of a Knowledge Curation issue rather than just a Cost Issue.
David
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by jimlad68 »

Regarding Search and costs: As with many websites I would normally also like to use the option here:
Forum Usage Tips
Extended Search for Keywords with Google Site Search, but this does not seem to find items in the Knowledge Base and seems to show only older forum items as if it was an old abandoned database.
Perhaps Google does not monitor the new KB and Forum? Can it be made to?

I suppose my point here could be that more usage of things like Extended Search for Keywords with Google Site Search would reduce the Algolia search usage.

P.S. the Extended Search for Keywords with Site Search seems more productive on Bing and Duckduckgo search for forum but not KB.
Jim Orrell - researching: see - but probably out of date https://gw.geneanet.org/jimlad68
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Re: FHUG costs

Post by tatewise »

See my explanation in FHUG Searching (20896) of why KB is not searched due to change in URL
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A message on behalf of Jane

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Thank you to everybody who has donated yesterday and today! Our costs are now covered until at least the end of 2022. (Although if you are intending to donate but haven't got around to it, don't let that stop you :D )

Rather than have any sort of regular reminders, she would prefer that we have 'Donation drives' (such as has just happened inadvertently :D ) whenever funds start running low. That way, we can avoid intruding too much on people's use of the FHUG and the KB (and making their eyes glaze over whenever they see a 'reminder'). The Donate links will remain in place (perhaps made a little more prominent when we have time to do that) and I'll add one to the Knowledge Base, so that anyone who has the urge can donate at any time. (This approach also means we don't need to invest any technical support effort in implementing reminders and the like -- sometimes the simple solutions are still the best).

(Apologies from Jane for not posting herself, but she is up to her armpits and beyond in her day job.)
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Search

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Can we move the discussion about search facilities to one place: FHUG Searching (20896)

Thanks.
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