Family Historian User Group

For a non touch-typist. The ability as in Excel to press (Ctrl and insert today's date would be convenient for Citations. I thought this must be available, but if so it has eluded me.

Peter Williams

One explanation is the Entry Date for Citations is not intended to be today's date, so FH does not offer it.
The GEDCOM Specification for the Citation ~ Entry_Recording_Date states:

The date that this event data was entered into the original source document.

FH will allow you to enter dates in many popular formats, so use whatever is easiest for you to type.
But entering today's date has no genealogical significance.

However, if you use AS to capture Source documents it has an option to use Today's Date in that field.

tatewise wrote: ↑

03 Jun 2020 18:33

But entering today's date has no genealogical significance.

Obviously Peter has a use for it and many others who use Ancestral Sources, or the option would not be in AS.

I think the author Nick Walker reluctantly provided that option for a few users but the Help clearly says the same as me:

Some users prefer to use this field to record the date that they entered the information into Ancestral Sources. This is not the intended use of this field as specified in the GEDCOM standard but the option is there for those users who choose to use it for this purpose.

I am not disagreeing with you Mike, I am just pointing out that if it is wrong as Nick and you are stating then AS should not be encouraging it by giving it as an option.

Mike
Thank you for pointing out the error of my interpretation. I have to say I am a bit puzzled as to why the information is required because I'm attaching a copy of the downloaded image (in well over half cases - it's cost me a fortune at GRO) Parish Registers, Military Records, Census etc. as evidence and in cases where the information has come from a transcript I mostly I don't know the date of the transcript.

I think what lead me astray in my understanding was that I thought it was creating the closest thing to a logfile of what I was doing and when. My focus is more on my mortality and what an interested granddaughter might be wondering in 50 years.

I'm not an accountant, but our Quickbooks software we use for accounting keeps a record of any alterations and additions in what it happily calls an "audit trail". So can you tell me why an audit trail might not have a value in family history software?

Like everyone, I very much value your work here on this Forum, thank you

Peter Williams

Peter,
that is why I use today's date on the citation. To provide me with an "Audit Trail".
When I look at an individual's Birth record for example, and can straight away see what dates that I got the relevant sources.
Prime example would be if I got 1939 register over a year ago, it would be time to possibly revisit if there were any redacted entries on the page.
I know that this is not the "Correct" use of the field, but it is how I and others use it. and it works well for me.
This is another example of FH providing more than one way to record something.
John

This has been discussed many times before, and I was only trying to explain that FH did not have a shortcut for today's date because the GEDCOM definition for Citation Entry Date is not intended for today's date, so being 100% GEDCOM compatible Calico Pie saw no need for it.

Regarding Audit Trail, there are many more data entries in FH than just Source Citations.
Every record has its own last Updated date-time stamp.
So if you add a Source record (and you are a splitter) then its Updated date-time stamp will automatically be that day's date & time and therefore is its Audit Trail.
If you never edit that Source record again then that date-time stamp will never change.
The same goes for the Media record that may be attached to that Source record.
The same goes for any Individual or Family record that is added and never later updated.
So if you open the Records Window and on any tab sort by Updated, there is your Audit Trail history.

Mike

Thanks for the explanation and details in your final para, and for clearing up my misunderstanding.

Peter

I use Entry Date to record the date I entered or last updated details about a Fact. This because the Updated date is not fixed until you next manually update something to do with that record. For example I use the plugin Format Dates in Sentences and in order for records to get any updates I make to a sentence template I have to 'unformat' then 'reformat'. This changes the Updated date record to that date and time, no actual changes to any facts were made, just a presentation change. There may well be other plug-ins that do this as well. Thus I would urge caution about relying on Updated for 'audit' purposes.

tatewise wrote: ↑

07 Jun 2020 09:59

This has been discussed many times before, and I was only trying to explain that FH did not have a shortcut for today's date because the GEDCOM definition for Citation Entry Date is not intended for today's date, so being 100% GEDCOM compatible Calico Pie saw no need for it.

I don't think that is strictly true, Mike. Calico Pie do label it as 'Entry date' for the date that the user created or recorded that Citation.
I checked the 5.5.1 spec, which has:
SOURCE_CITATION:=
[ /* pointer to source record (preferred)*/
n SOUR @<XREF:SOUR>@ {1:1} p.27
+1 PAGE <WHERE_WITHIN_SOURCE> {0:1} p.64
+1 EVEN <EVENT_TYPE_CITED_FROM> {0:1} p.49
+2 ROLE <ROLE_IN_EVENT> {0:1} p.61
+1 DATA {0:1}
+2 DATE <ENTRY_RECORDING_DATE> {0:1} p.48 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
+2 TEXT <TEXT_FROM_SOURCE> {0:M} p.63
+3 [CONC|CONT] <TEXT_FROM_SOURCE> {0:M}
+1 <<MULTIMEDIA_LINK>> {0:M} p.37, 26
+1 <<NOTE_STRUCTURE>> {0:M} p.37
+1 QUAY <CERTAINTY_ASSESSMENT> {0:1} p.43

If you are using the Auto Source Citation input particularly for a generic source, the 'yellow' input screen has 'Entry Date' for typically today's date as it is the date that I am entering the data. If you Add a New Generic Source, again the Entry Date is used in the Citation Specific Details. These are NOT the Source document creation date, but the date that the entry was added to the underlying gedcom within FH.
Family Search themselves use this as the date of initial citation : "Citing this Record
"England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2JQJ-XWF : 31 December 2014), Jemima Drage, 1844; from "England & Wales Deaths, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Death, Royston, Hertfordshire, England, General Register Office, Southport, England."
Jemima was born in 1844; her record is in the 1837-2006 set of records, and the 2012 is the citation date.
To me, this is completely different to the date that the relevant Church or Civil record was written, ie 1844, that is in that record collection.

The definition in the GEDCOM 5.5 Standard is quite unambiguous:

ENTRY_RECORDING_DATE: = {Size=1:90}
<DATE_VALUE>
The date that this event data was entered into the original source document.

The definition in the GEDCOM 5.5.1 Standard is identical on Page 48.

I could not find a definition of Entry Date in FH V7 help but in FH V6 it says:

Typically Entry Date is used to store an entry date in, say, a register. However, you can also adapt it to store other dates, if citing a non-document source.

Where do Calico Pie say it is "for the date that the user created or recorded that Citation"?

I would add that in V7 Tools > Preferences > Sources > Generic Source Formats one of the options, ticked by default, for inclusion in a footnote for a generic source is the Entry Date. Pesumably you wouldn't think it appropriate to include that in a footnote if it was the date you recorded the data in your gedcom? It wouldn't make any sense to a reader.

To enter todays date in various formats I use "Arsclip" similar to "Ditto" added benefit of these windows clipboard addons is that you can repeat previous dates you have entered/COPYed, or many other things.

This seems to be a duplicate of wish list request 186: https://fhug.org.uk/wishlist/wldisplay.php?wlwlref=186