* Making the Plugins Discussion Forum more useful

[ColeValleyGirl]

Mike, this topic went off-piste a week ago, when the possibility of an new alternative plugin was introduced, followed shortly afterwards by the possibility that an existing DEA was (or wasn't) a viable alternative. And then of course the discussion about how to make it easier for people to find the appropriate (for them) information/discussion in the Plugins forum.

However, most of the discussion about the Add GRO Source plugin and the alternatives was aimed at 'how to use them/what they do' -- so basic user level (to borrow pentris's phrase), and I'm not sure a compare and contrast approach is out of place in a single thread (although it does make the thread more complex).

Pentris's intervention about the difficulty in finding plugins in the forums should with hindsight have been split off into a separate thread, with a reference back to this one as an example of the perceived problem.

[jelv]

However, most of the discussion about the Add GRO Source plugin and the alternatives was aimed at 'how to use them/what they do' -- so basic user level (to borrow pentris's phrase), and I'm not sure a compare and contrast approach is out of place in a single thread (although it does make the thread more complex).

Perhaps what is needed is a separation of topics with how do I do xxxxxx?, compare and contrast, etc. in the General Usage forum. So in this example we'd have a topic "Methods of recording UK Births, Deaths and Marriages" with links to specific support topics in this forum.

The Plugins forum should be support and discussion of single Plugins/DEAs (or associated group). Perhaps ONE post pointing to an alternative.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Let's develop the idea of two separate forums a bit further, as nobody has run screaming from the virtual room at the idea...

Everything below is open to challenge, so fire away!

Objectives:

• To make it easier for users to get support and advice on using individual plugins while avoiding plugin development discussions if they are of no interest to them
• To clarify the the Plugin Store is the recommended source of all published plugins for general use
• To make it easier for plugin authors to support their published plugins.
• To make it easier for plugin authors and interested users to discuss/help with the development and testing of new plugins, including those intended for publication in the store and those intended for private use.
• To provide plugin authors with a temporary place to provide plugins in development
• We will probably want to set out some guidelines for raising topics in any new forums but not to burden moderators or users, or to inhibit discussion, by imposing unnecessarily rigid rules -- we should be pragmatic. In particular, if a topic is about a plugin it doesn't automatically belong in a Plugins forum!

Proposal:

Two separate forums (NOT sub-forums):

• Using Plugins
• Creating Plugins

Note: Forums rather than sub-forums, because they're more visible, and because it emphasises that both are important topics here.

Using Plugins

Focus: Helping users make the most of published plugins; and helping published plugin authors fix bugs (published = released for general use via the plugin store)

On-topic here:

• Advice on using a specific published plugin (could equally well sit in e.g. the General plugin and perhaps should?)
• Reporting/fixing bug(s) in a published plugin, including temporary publication of bug-fix releases for testing.
• Announcements of publication of, or updates to, published plugins
  [*}General user advice on: What are Plugins, using the Plugin store/installing plugins, keeping them up to date, etc. (Most of this will hopefully involve referring users to the KB and maybe updating the KB to answer 'new' questions). (Or are Plugins mature enough for this to be considered General as well?)
• ?????

Off-topic here:

• Discussion of alternative plugins to the one of group of related plugins under discussion in any topic on a named plugin (any suggestion of an alternative should be simple one-liner, suggesting that a new topic be opened (in General or Exporting and Importing?)
• Long-term publication of plugins released for general use. Versions posted here should be deleted (via an author request to the moderators) once an updated version is published.
• ?????

Does it belong here (overlaps with other forums)?

• If a plugin is suggested as a solution to a query in another forum, with advice on how to use it, does the discussion move here? Example: How do I do X? Answer: Use plugin Y, or Use plugin Y and this is how specifically to do it? Helen's view: The topic should be left where it originated unless it morphs into bug fixing or enhancement discussions -- it will be of use to users who might not have considered a plugin as a solution to the same problem, so might not look in the Using Plugins forum.
• What if two or more plugins are suggested, and pros and cons discussed? Helen's view: The topic should be left where it originated unless it morphs into/interferes with bug fixing or enhancement discussions -- it will be of use to users who might not have considered a plugin as a solution to the same problem, so might not look in the Using Plugins forum.
• What happens if bug fixing morphs into development? Helen's view: The topic should be split between Using Plugins and Creating Plugins.
• ????

Creating Plugins

Focus: Helping creators develop and test new plugins for general use (publication in the Plugin Store) or personal use

On-topic here:

• Development/testing of new plugins (these might be initiated by discussions in the General, Importing and Exporting, or the New Wish List Request forums, or in the Using Plugins forum, or started here directly. If they originate elsewhere they should be migrated here.).
• Enhancement of existing published plugins
• Advice on LUA, IUP, and other libraries available to plugin authors; and on development tools.
• ??????

Off-topic here:

• Development of 'one off' plugins to meet the needs of an individual user. These should stay in the topic that triggers them, unless the author decides they're of more general interest (in which case discussion should be moved here, and the plugin eventually published and removed from the relevant topic(s).)
• Long-term publication of plugins released for general use. Versions posted here should be deleted (via an author request to the moderators) once an updated version is published.
• ?????

[tatewise]

IMO the distinction between the two forums would be clearer if named:
Using Published Plugins
Development of Plugins

The difference between reporting/fixing bug(s) in published plugins and enhancement of existing published plugins is very grey.
Apart from Lua Error messages, users typically report that a plugin does not behave the way they would expect.
Whether that is due to an oversight by the author or a bug is often a narrow distinction.
Either way, it usually involves some 'enhancement' to cater for scenarios not previously handled.
IMO anything involving published plugins should all go in the Using Published Plugins forum.

[BillH]

I think the name Creating Plugins (or as Mike suggested Development of Plugins) sounds like a place to develop a new plugin before it is published or to discuss topics regarding how to create a plugin.

If I were wanting to ask a question about or report a problem with an existing unpublished plugin, I would not think to put it in this forum. The name seems to imply it is for new plugins only.

Do we need a forum for unpublished plugins? Or do we need a more descriptive name for this forum?

Bill

[tatewise]

Bill, you would discuss an unpublished plugin in whatever forum you found the plugin, which as Helen said could be any forum, but you must have found it somewhere before being able to discuss it.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Bill, i was envisaging the Creating Plugins would be the place to access and then discuss unpublished plugins except for the one-offs which tbh only Mike develops. Can you suggest a more descriptive, short name?

Mike, the longer and more complex a name, the more likely it is to turn users off.

You seem to have a different definition of bug fixing than i do. Bug fixing = does not work as designed. Enhancement = current design/code does not meet user need. There's also Documentation improvement needed aka Won't Change behaviour if code which should sit with bug fixingbut will update documentation. And also No Action aka Wont fix.

Whats important is that authors all take a consistent approach to what is handled where so that users dont get confused.

IMO anything involving published plugins should all go in the Using Published Plugins forum.

User: how do I do X.
Answer: use this plugin from the store.
User: Thanks.

Would you really move that? When the user didnt know a plugin was the answer? And the solution will inrvitably get great visibility in General or Importing a d Exporting? And moving it would reinforce the perception that some users hold that plugins are hard and difficult and niche? What benefit would there be in moving it?

[ColeValleyGirl]

Bill, you would discuss an unpublished plugin in whatever forum you found the plugin, which as Helen said could be any forum, but you must have found it somewhere before being able to discuss it.

I may not have been clear - sorry. IMO if a topic else where initiates development of a new general purpose plugin (i.e. not one for a single user) then it would be moved or split (with a pointer) into the Creating Plugins forum. So there would only be one place to find them and/or discuss them. Apart for one-off dedicated plugins that are mostly mikes work.

[BillH]

Bill, you would discuss an unpublished plugin in whatever forum you found the plugin, which as Helen said could be any forum, but you must have found it somewhere before being able to discuss it.

Mike,

Some of the unpublished plugins I use were first discussed in the Plugin Discussions forum. I thought the idea was to replace this forum with two new ones. Maybe I misunderstood. Will these two new ones be in addition to the Plugin Discussion forum? If so it is going to be hard to determine when to use Plugin discussion or one of these new ones.

If there will only be these two forums then what will happen to the existing posts in Plugin Discussions?

Seems like we be making things more confusing rather than less confusing. If in a discussion in General Usage it becomes clear that a plugin is needed, will the discussion of the plugin, the posting of the plugin, and the testing of the plugin get posted there or will it go into Creating plugins?

Bill

[BillH]

Bill, i was envisaging the Creating Plugins would be the place to access and then discuss unpublished plugins except for the one-offs which tbh only Mike develops. Can you suggest a more descriptive, short name?

Helen,

I don't know that I can come up with a better name. I think having unpublished plugins in Creating Plugins and also in their original forum (General Usage, Plugin Discussions, etc) is confusing, but I'm not sure of a better way. I have no problems with the way it is now except it is not always easy to determine where you got the unpublished plugin in the first place. I just searched for one that I use and I couldn't find it anywhere. If anything, I would like to have them all accessible in one place.

Actually, I have some unpublished plugins written by Mike Tate, Mark Draper, Phil Chandler, and John Elvin.

Bill

[tatewise]

Mike, the longer and more complex a name, the more likely it is to turn users off.

Maybe, but a forum called 'Using Plugins' can mean many things to different people.
Users who are using any Plugin whether published or not would be tempted to post there.
Potential authors might ask questions about whether using a Plugin is the right approach.
IMO if it is focused on Published Plugins then the word Published should be in the forum name.
There are several forums with significantly longer names and not aware of users being put off.
Nobody has mentioned long forum names anywhere that I recall.

IMO anything involving published plugins should all go in the Using Published Plugins forum.

User: how do I do X.
Answer: use this plugin from the store.
User: Thanks.

Would you really move that? When the user didn't know a plugin was the answer? And the solution will inevitably get great visibility in General or Importing a d Exporting? And moving it would reinforce the perception that some users hold that plugins are hard and difficult and niche? What benefit would there be in moving it?

No, I would not move such a straightforward posting.
When I said "anything involving published plugins" I meant anything within your on-topic lists.
When users post questions about using published plugins I don't think they will ask is this a bug or is it a new feature and quite often it is a combination because they don't restrict themselves to just one question.
They will just post in the Using Published Plugins forum.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Some of the unpublished plugins I use were first discussed in the Plugin Discussions forum. I thought the idea was to replace this forum with two new ones. Maybe I misunderstood. Will these two new ones be in addition to the Plugin Discussion forum? If so it is going to be hard to determine when to use Plugin discussion or one of these new ones.

If there will only be these two forums then what will happen to the existing posts in Plugin Discussions?

Bill, my thoughts were there would only be the two new 'live' forums, replacing the existing Plugin Discussions forum. The Plugin Discussion Forum would be made read-only. If somebody desperately wanted to resuscitate a discussion from there, they could open a new topic with a link to the old one as context.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Bill, i was envisaging the Creating Plugins would be the place to access and then discuss unpublished plugins except for the one-offs which tbh only Mike develops. Can you suggest a more descriptive, short name?

Helen,

Actually, I have some unpublished plugins written by Mike Tate, Mark Draper, Phil Chandler, and John Elvin.

Bill

Bill, are those one-off plugins written specifically for you, or simply plugins that the author has chosen not to publish?

[Normie]

Guys, why is the discussion polluting this 'Add GRO Source plugin' thread even further?

No wonder users can't find useful stuff when these diversionary discussions take over a thread.

As it seems that my intervention into the original topic caused that topic to be taken over by these diversionary discussions.

On reflection, perhaps I didn’t use the forum as it was intended to be used. My intention was to help to answer a specific question raised in that topic, and suggested that a plugin that I had created for my personal use may help. Later I realised that there was a replacement plugin he could use was already available in the plugin store. Shortly after that the topic diversified.
I should not have suggested that I could offer an unsupported plugin as an option, pointing him to a potential replacement in the store would have been enough.

As a corollary, some time ago, I posted a plugin that I had been working on

Potential Probate Plugin viewtopic.php?f=42&t=21097
which generated a positive response. It resulted in others looking at my plugin and developing their own plugins. My aim, at that time, was to pass on knowledge I had gained that others may benefit from, something I found difficult to find. So the system CAN work if used properly.

The legacy to me is, that someone may have adopted my plugin, which means have a moral obligation to support it. I now have to find a way to do that; lesson learnt!

Whether 2 forums are needed I leave you to judge. Perhaps we, as contributors, should avoid straying off the topic.

[ColeValleyGirl]

There's another way we might change things that might be better... As always, open to challenge.

Objectives:

• To make it easier for users to get support and advice on using plugins while avoiding plugin development discussions if they are of no interest to them
• To clarify the the Plugin Store is the recommended source of all published plugins for general use
• To make it easier for plugin authors to support their published plugins.
• To make it easier for plugin authors and interested users to discuss/help with the development and testing of new plugins, including those intended for publication in the store and those intended for private use.
• To provide plugin authors with a temporary place to provide plugins in development

Proposal:

General Usage/Importing and Exporting Forums

Focus: Helping users make the most of plugins (as well as everything it already does)

On-topic here:

• All discussion about the use of, and comparisons between, plugins. (Quite a lot of it happens here already, as well as in the Plugin Discussions forum, so this would just simplify matters now that plugins are no longer a new and unfamiliar feature.)
• General user advice on: What are Plugins, using the Plugin store/installing plugins, keeping them up to date, etc. (Most of this will hopefully involve referring users to the KB and maybe updating the KB to answer 'new' questions).
• Provision of one-off plugins tailored for a specific need for a single user.

Off-topic here:

• Plugin maintenance (bug fixing/enhancement) and development. If a topic veers into this territory, it should be split and the relevant section moved into one of the two new forums mentioned later.
• Plugin 'hosting' except for the one-off plugins mentioned above.

Plugin Discussions Forum

• The 'Plugin Discussions' Forum to be made read-only, with a description (and pinned post) advising what to post where instead. If somebody wants to resuscitate an old discussion, they should open a new topic in the appropriate place and link to the old topic for context.
• Create two new forums in its place:
  
  • Plugin Maintenance
  • New Plugins
  Note: Forums rather than sub-forums, because they're more visible.

Plugin Maintenance

Focus: Helping plugin authors maintain and enhance their published plugins.

On-topic here:

• Reporting/fixing bug(s) in a published plugin, including temporary publication of releases for testing
• Enhancement of existing published plugins
• Announcements of publication of, or updates to, published plugins

Off-topic here:

• Discussion of alternative plugins to the plugin or group of related plugins under discussion in any topic. (Should be moved to the General or Importing and Exporting forums.)
• Long-term publication of plugins released for general use. Versions posted here should be deleted (via an author request to the moderators) once an updated version is published in the Plugin Store.

New Plugins

Focus: Helping creators develop and test new plugins for general use (publication in the Plugin Store) or personal use

On-topic here:

• Discussion about/Development and testing of new plugins (these might be initiated by discussions in the General, Importing and Exporting, or the New Wish List Request forums, or in the Using Plugins forum, or started here directly. If they originate elsewhere they should be migrated here).
• In a sub-forum called Plugin Programming: Advice on LUA, IUP, and other libraries available to plugin authors; and on development tools. (This keep the technical nitty-gritty of interest to a minority out of the way of the vast majority of users).

Off-topic here:

• Development of 'one off' plugins to meet the needs of an individual user. These should stay in the topic that triggers them, unless the author decides they're of more general interest (in which case discussion should be moved here, and the plugin eventually published and removed from the relevant topic(s).)
• Long-term publication of plugins released for general use. Versions posted here should be deleted (via an author request to the moderators) once an updated version is published.

Issues I can still see with this proposal

Plugins are still going to be available from multiple places -- this is the potential source of confusion for users that started this discussion at https://fhug.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php ... 45#p132951

• The Plugin Store:
  • Released versions of supported plugins
• Plugin Maintenance
  • Temporary downloads of updated plugins for testing, prior to a new release to the plugin store.
• Plugin Development
  • Temporary downloads of new plugins for testing, prior release to the plugin store
  • Probably, long term downloads of plugins that the author decides not to release to the plugin store
  • General/Importing & Exporting
    • One-off plugins released to support a specific user with a specific requirement.
  • Plugin Discussions
    • Historic unreleased plugins

[BillH]

Bill, i was envisaging the Creating Plugins would be the place to access and then discuss unpublished plugins except for the one-offs which tbh only Mike develops. Can you suggest a more descriptive, short name?

Helen,

Actually, I have some unpublished plugins written by Mike Tate, Mark Draper, Phil Chandler, and John Elvin.

Bill

Bill, are those one-off plugins written specifically for you, or simply plugins that the author has chosen not to publish?

Helen,

Oh... I see. I think I misunderstood what you meant by one-off. Some from Mike were written specifically for me. The others were ones that were not written specifically for me and I just decided to use them.

Bill

[ColeValleyGirl]

Thanks, Bill.

[Valkrider]

Helen

Your last proposal sounds good to me.

To further enhance it a 'house keeping suggestion'

In the Plugin Maintenance and Plugin Development forums once testing/development has finished on that issue then add to the thread title something like "Now Complete" and then lock the thread.

[ColeValleyGirl]

That would make sense, Colin. Help authors to keep track of things, certainly.

[Mark1834]

It probably needs plugin authors to be disciplined as well. Looking through plugin files in my profile attachments list, there are probably all of those types represented

• prototypes and test versions of store plugins that can now be deleted
• obsolete plugins that are no longer required due to improvements in FH
• small one-offs that were written for a specific purpose but didn’t evolve any further
• Various bug fixes around RM imports that have been popular but highlight FH limitations and bugs, so probably not for the store (and will eventually become obsolete).

[ColeValleyGirl]

It probably needs plugin authors to be disciplined as well.

I suspect you're right.

[Mark1834]

Coincidentally, this recent question on clearing the recent file list is a good example for this discussion.

Should “Clear Recent File List” be a store plugin? It performs a useful function, and has had a number of downloads despite its poor visibility here. I’m inclined to say yes. If we’re nervous about quality control in FHUG plugins, we definitely shouldn’t be hosting executable files, where we are wholly dependent on the author to have implemented it correctly (not an implied criticism of anybody - we’re discussing principles, not personalities).

[ColeValleyGirl]

Coincidentally, this recent question on clearing the recent file list is a good example for this discussion.

Should “Clear Recent File List” be a store plugin?

IMO, yes, but I'd never insist anyone put a plugin in the store if they didn't want to for whatever reason.

we definitely shouldn’t be hosting executable files

I certainly wouldn't be happy hosting executables from random authors -- the kb hosts very very few; from memory, just Cleaning Out the Recent File List (written by Jane) and a copy of PAF. And we wouldn't approve any others without a compelling case and some thorough checking.

If we’re nervous about quality control in FHUG plugins

It isn't quality control I worry about; even the store says:

You will be able to make as many changes and improvements as you want to your plugin after you have submitted it to the Plugin Store, so don’t assume that it has to be perfect before you submit it!

Although it would be a concern if a plugin inadvertently did real damage to somebody's data and they didn't realise in time to undo all plugin changes, that's what backups are for.

I'm more worried about version control for plugins that never make it to the store -- users finding something 'useful' in a old thread, not realising it's outdated/buggy/unsupported/whatever. As you say, plugin authors need the discipline to ensure there's only one, possibly 2 versions of an plugin available (one 'live', one 'under development'). And nobody can enforce that except the authors themselves.

[Mark1834]

That sounds like a long version of "yes" , so I'll submit it to the store later and delete the FHUG version. No reason not to do it before, just never got around to it.

[jelv]

Plugin Discussions Forum
[*]The 'Plugin Discussions' Forum to be made read-only, with a description (and pinned post) advising what to post where instead. If somebody wants to resuscitate an old discussion, they should open a new topic in the appropriate place and link to the old topic for context.

Does the forum software allow you to set the permissions on a forum to stop users being able to start a new topic, but allow replies on existing topics? If so do that and then the whole topic could be moved to one of the new forums* when it's "woken up" - that would keep all the discussion in one topic.

*ETA It wouldn't matter if it took a few days for one of the mods to do this.