* Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

For users to report plugin bugs and request plugin enhancements; and for authors to test new/new versions of plugins, and to discuss plugin development (in the Programming Technicalities sub-forum). If you want advice on choosing or using a plugin, please ask in General Usage or an appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 5464
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V7
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Those authors who wish to maintain plugin compatibility for V6 and V7 need environments in which to test. Which implies they need to run (at least) V6 and V7 in parallel.

I want to update the KnowledgeBase to cover this topic, so wish to explore the options. I'm aware of:
  • Separate PCs for V6 and V7
  • Virtual Machine (e.g. Windows Hyper-V) for V6.
Both these options require a valid licence for Windows per PC/Virtual Machine (no extra cost if you have distinct PCs, but Virtual Machine requires an extra licence -- circa £100 - £110). For distinct PCs, there's also the inconvenience of using different versions of FH for non-testing work.

They also require distinct licences for FH6. Upgrading FH6 to FH7 according to my reading of the licence means you can only use 2 installations of FH7 going forward, but I might be wrong -- 5 years managing software licences in a commercial environment doesn't make me infallible. If I'm not wrong, authors might need to budget for an extra licence... £60.

Has anyone identified any other (legal) option? I'm not interested in ways around the Windows or FH licencing restrictions (and will delete anything suggesting illegal software use).

I have used Sandboxie in the past, but the later versions don't seem to provide the permanance that some aspect of plugins need.
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28333
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by tatewise »

You make an interesting point about the FH V6 and FH V7 licence conditions.
It is clear that several users are running FH V6 and FH V7 in parallel for various reasons including Plugin compatibility.
If Calico Pie want Plugin Authors to provide compatibility across FH versions then they need to consider how the licence terms may need adjusting to grant Plugin Store Authors the ability to have two copies of any FH version installed.
I am most definitely not paying extra to support Plugin compatibility so that capability will be eliminated from my Plugins.
The FHUG KB advice for that Plugin compatibility would probably become redundant if extra cost is involved.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 5464
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V7
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Mike, I'm deliberately not asking CP re licencing. I'm lucky. I have an unused fh6 licence that I bought for a family member who lost interest. And I have more uses than one for a vm so an additional windows licence effectively costs me nothing.

Would you not leave the versions of your plugins that work in fh6 available but frozen?
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28333
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by tatewise »

It might be better to delete this topic and just keep quiet on the matter. If CP make a fuss then Authors would just delete their Plugins in disgust.

Where does that leave the FHUG KB advice? Should it mention there licence issue you raised? It would seem to be encouraging Authors to have all of FH V5 and V6 and V7 installed in order to check compatibility, i.e. possibly infringing the license terms.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
User avatar
Mark1834
Megastar
Posts: 2458
Joined: 27 Oct 2017 19:33
Family Historian: V7
Location: South Cheshire, UK

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by Mark1834 »

It all seems to hang on what effect purchasing an FH7 upgrade has on your existing FH6 licence. As far as I can see, both licences are silent on that issue, so what is a reasonable interpretation?

I interpret the upgrade as a “loyal customer” discount, so I am getting a discount compared with buying both FH6 and FH7 at full retail price. There is nothing in the upgrade offer that implies that it is a trade-in or exchange of new for old. I currently have FH6 on two PCs, and FH7 on a third, and I’m comfortable with that scenario.

I run both versions pending a fix of the reporting and PDF issue, in case I need to revert. My practical solution is separate databases for each version (completely non-overlapping trees), with plugins, queries, fact sets etc synchronised via directory junctions.
Mark Draper
User avatar
BillH
Megastar
Posts: 2245
Joined: 31 May 2010 03:40
Family Historian: V7
Location: Washington State, USA

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by BillH »

tatewise wrote: 05 Feb 2021 17:36 I am most definitely not paying extra to support Plugin compatibility so that capability will be eliminated from my Plugins.
Mike,

Would you clarify what you mean? I hope you are not saying you will eliminate the ability to use plugins in FH6 which have been updated to run in FH7.

Bill
User avatar
NickWalker
Megastar
Posts: 2597
Joined: 02 Jan 2004 17:39
Family Historian: V7
Location: Lancashire, UK
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by NickWalker »

I am currently running v6 on one PC and v7 on another. I will eventually upgrade both. At that stage I probably won't test whether AS will work on v6 in the same way that for years I've just assumed AS will work with versions 5, 4, 3, etc. but haven't actually tested it. I suppose ultimately if a version stops working with FH6 users will be able to continue to use an older version of AS. I would assume that would be the same with plugins?
Nick Walker
Ancestral Sources Developer

https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
User avatar
BillH
Megastar
Posts: 2245
Joined: 31 May 2010 03:40
Family Historian: V7
Location: Washington State, USA

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by BillH »

Nick,

I have backups of older versions of AS which work with FH 6 including AS 5.3 and AS 7.1.2. I will keep these around in case I have to re-install AS at some point. I am still undecided about updating to FH 7 and definitely won't do an update before the slew of bugs are fixed (if they ever are).

Would it be a good idea to keep links on your website to the last version of AS which is compatible with each version of FH? I'm just thinking that not everyone is as good at keeping backups as I am. :D

Bill
User avatar
NickWalker
Megastar
Posts: 2597
Joined: 02 Jan 2004 17:39
Family Historian: V7
Location: Lancashire, UK
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by NickWalker »

If there are issues with AS working with FH6 I will try to fix them Bill, particularly as you've been a great supporter of AS over many many years and I know you would tell me about it. I'd be surprised if I did break FH6 compatibility to be honest. I think once the main issues with FH7 that people are concerned about are ironed out it's in all our interests to encourage people to upgrade to FH7 - we need Calico Pie to keep developing Family Historian and they won't be able to do that if too many people decide to stick with an old version. They're not like Microsoft, Adobe, etc. who have moved to a yearly subscription model, CP only get cash from each user every few years.
Nick Walker
Ancestral Sources Developer

https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
User avatar
BillH
Megastar
Posts: 2245
Joined: 31 May 2010 03:40
Family Historian: V7
Location: Washington State, USA

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by BillH »

Nick,

That is good to hear. I was only worried that once you have updated to FH 7 it may be hard for you to test changes to AS to ensure compatibility with older FH releases.

I agree with what you say about FH. I have been a user now for over 10 years and have always updated to every new version. Aside from the bugs which hopefully will get fixed, with this version there were some changes to the program which I'm not really exited about. I'm not talking about the new features which I can easily ignore, but rather UI changes. I will have to decide if I'm willing to live with them or just stick with FH 6.

Bill
User avatar
Mark1834
Megastar
Posts: 2458
Joined: 27 Oct 2017 19:33
Family Historian: V7
Location: South Cheshire, UK

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by Mark1834 »

If anything, the discussion should be the other way round. The tiny cohort of plugin authors spend untold hours supporting and promoting FH, so CP should be giving them complimentary copies of upgrades, rather than them worrying about CP getting anal on license enforcement and cutting off their nose to spite their face...
Mark Draper
User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 5464
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V7
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Mark, I'm a bit rusty on this, but I believe CP have to enforce their licences as and when they become aware of breaches, otherwise it becomes unenforceable completely and they effectively lose their business. I certainly wouldn't publicise it if I was running three copies of their software without purchasing an extra full licence; however you spin the licence terms it's quite clear on 'two copies of the software' max, and it's clearly described as an upgrade discount, not a loyalty discount. Because they've implemented a new licencing infrastructure for FH7 (and presumably later versions) it will become a moot point at some time -- the technology will prevent installing more than two copies of versions from 7 onwards.

Mike, I see no reason to modify the KB advice -- there's nothing in there that advises or encourages people to be able to test in V5 6 and 7; it just talks about how to code for backward compatibility. If anything, it's probably more useful if people aren't going to be in a position to do compatibility testing but can only check against come documentation that they've done what is necessary.

RE support for older versions, you've already said you don't intend to test if it involves expenditure, just as Nick doesn't test AS against earlier versions. You may however decide that maintaining backward compatibility is a recipe for an ongoing support nightmare if you don't test, and decide to freeze plugins for V6 and below and introduce new versions for V7. I doubt that Calico Pie would be concerned if working plugins for V6 aren't upgraded, or fret if new plugins weren't backward compatible -- as others have said, their business interests lie with people upgrading, not with people remaining on V6.

P.S. Mark, I do what I do for Family Historian users, not for CP, and I do it because I enjoy it, and might occasionally get thanked... I don't do it in hopes of a reward, not do I feel exploited as you seem to imply plugin authors are.
User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 5464
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V7
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

tatewise wrote: 05 Feb 2021 17:36 If Calico Pie want Plugin Authors to provide compatibility across FH versions then they need to consider how the licence terms may need adjusting to grant Plugin Store Authors the ability to have two copies of any FH version installed.
I missed this.

As far as I can see the licence doesn't mention versions, so one copy of FH6 and one copy of FH7 seems to be OK. I only need an extra licence because I've got FH7 installed on both my desktop PC and my laptop.
User avatar
Mark1834
Megastar
Posts: 2458
Joined: 27 Oct 2017 19:33
Family Historian: V7
Location: South Cheshire, UK

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by Mark1834 »

Where did I imply CP exploit plugin authors? I said plugin authors do a huge amount to support FH, so the scenario of them suddenly being difficult on testing for the tiny number of people involved is not a realistic one.

Clearly, my interpretation has limits, and I accept that a "free upgrade" offer for example is exactly that - the free FH7 replaces FH6. Selling off your old FH6 to somebody else after upgrading may or may not be covered by the letter of the agreement, but it is certainly contrary to the spirit of it and would not pass my test of what is a "reasonable" interpretation.

I'm perfectly comfortable with my current situation as an extended upgrade test, but I can't see any reason why anybody would want to run that way long term.

It's no different to somebody who had FH6 on both desktop and laptop, then upgrades their laptop. On the letter of the licence, they should delete FH from the old laptop prior to installing it on the new one, whereas most users would install the new, make sure it was working correctly, then delete the old. Is that software piracy? With FH7, you will have to deactivate your old laptop before the program activates on the new one.

For the beta test, the letter of the agreement probably required testers to delete the beta version immediately CP declared the programme complete, which they did just days before FH7 was released, but I'm sure many testers carried on using it pending their upgrade decision until the beta licenses expired last week.

I'm not for a minute defending software piracy, but just suggesting we need to keep a sense of proportion. You could probably count the number of users who would want to run multiple versions of FH on multiple PCs on the fingers of one hand, so deal with them by exception, rather than worry about trying to fix something that's probably not even broken.
Mark Draper
User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 5464
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V7
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Mark, FYI, the licence explicitly forbids "Selling off your old FH6 to somebody else after upgrading"; and the Beta testing agreement explicitly required people to delete the beta software when testing finished. (Yes, I keep copies of everything I've signed up to. Just in case...)

I started this topic looking for technical solutions, and it got side tracked into a licencing discussion. So I'm trying again:

Does anyone have any other technical solutions for running V6 and V7 in parallel. Assume licencing is not an issue -- I'm sure that if a plugin author using V7 asked FH for permission to run V6 for testing purposes, there wouldn't be an issue.
User avatar
Valkrider
Megastar
Posts: 1563
Joined: 04 Jun 2012 19:03
Family Historian: V7
Location: Lincolnshire
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by Valkrider »

ColeValleyGirl wrote: 10 Feb 2021 10:54 Does anyone have any other technical solutions for running V6 and V7 in parallel. Assume licencing is not an issue -- I'm sure that if a plugin author using V7 asked FH for permission to run V6 for testing purposes, there wouldn't be an issue.
One way would be to run Wine on Windows saves the cost of a Windows licence. See https://liliputing.com/2019/08/wine-on- ... linux.html
User avatar
mjashby
Megastar
Posts: 719
Joined: 23 Oct 2004 10:45
Family Historian: V7
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by mjashby »

In addition to Colin's 'Wine in Windows' suggestion which I've never tried, I would suggest:

a) a full Windows Virtual Machine as an alternative. If you don't have a 'spare' Windows licence (7/8.0/8.1, might still allow upgrades to Windows 10 at no cost according to various internet guides) then Microsoft provides full 'development/testing' Windows 10 Virtual Machines which work fully for 90 days, after which a full reinstall is required.

b) IME FH6 and AS7 also work pretty well under Wine in a Linux Virtual Machine, with no noticeable loss in performance, although FH6 Wine.apps do, of course, have some known limitations, but not as many as FH7 does currently. AS7 seems to work effectively in Wine, providing the new Table and RTF features are avoided.

Mervyn
Last edited by mjashby on 10 Feb 2021 14:11, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mark1834
Megastar
Posts: 2458
Joined: 27 Oct 2017 19:33
Family Historian: V7
Location: South Cheshire, UK

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by Mark1834 »

It’s been a worthwhile discussion though, if it has reassured you that FH licences wouldn’t be a problem in the real world... ;)

I’d be slightly wary of solutions that were atypical of the way general FH6 users operated, unless it was guaranteed not to introduce any wrinkles. Given that the relevant audience is purely those who write plugins for other people, is a second PC the entry fee for that club? I can think of solutions that would work on a single PC without sandboxing or emulators, but they are not exactly practical.
Mark Draper
User avatar
mjashby
Megastar
Posts: 719
Joined: 23 Oct 2004 10:45
Family Historian: V7
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by mjashby »

Mark,

A Virtual Machine is a 'second' PC with very low investment in any hardware or I would currently be sitting in front of 19 PCs :D

Mervyn
User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 5464
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V7
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

It’s been a worthwhile discussion though, if it has reassured you that FH licences wouldn’t be a problem in the real world...
Assuming the relevant person asks permission... As an ex-software licencing manager, I'll always want the is dotted and the ts crossed, and an email granting permission in my back pocket (not that my setup needs one).

A Hyper-V Virtual Machine shouldn't look any different to the way a Windows PC looks, and a Windows licence for it (if you can't reuse something you already have) is a lot cheaper than a separate PC (as Mervyn points out). I haven't tried the Wine suggestion yet.
User avatar
Mark1834
Megastar
Posts: 2458
Joined: 27 Oct 2017 19:33
Family Historian: V7
Location: South Cheshire, UK

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by Mark1834 »

Fair enough, but let’s not lose sight of the original question. Existing plugin authors will already have their solutions for running FH6/7 in parallel if they need to do that. New authors who don’t already have access to multiple PCs (real or virtual) are highly unlikely to support FH6 and FH7 if it costs money to get set up to do so, so what can we suggest to them that provides a zero-cost and practical option for testing in a representative environment?
Mark Draper
User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 5464
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V7
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

Mark1834 wrote: 10 Feb 2021 15:09 Existing plugin authors will already have their solutions for running FH6/7 in parallel if they need to do that.
Not so -- we know Mike doesn't, from what he's said, and Nick W doesn't either (including him because he has a similar challenge).
New authors who don’t already have access to multiple PCs (real or virtual) are highly unlikely to support FH6 and FH7 if it costs money to get set up to do so, so what can we suggest to them that provides a zero-cost and practical option for testing in a representative environment?
Which brings us back neatly to my original question!
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28333
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by tatewise »

ColeValleyGirl wrote: 10 Feb 2021 15:21 we know Mike doesn't
Not true. I have an old laptop to run FH V6. What I was opposed to was paying an extra licence fee for the privilege.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
User avatar
Mark1834
Megastar
Posts: 2458
Joined: 27 Oct 2017 19:33
Family Historian: V7
Location: South Cheshire, UK

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by Mark1834 »

It would be easy enough to keep a separate FH6 test dataset on an FH7 PC, so the question might be one of how to swap between FH6 and FH7 on the same box if there is no solution for getting a free second one.

I used a simple batch file to completely backup the FH7 beta installation, complete with activation details, so I could quickly reinstall (on the same PC) and restore it to a known state.

Are there options there to extend that approach to a one-click complete backup of FH7, automation uninstallation, installation of FH6, and finally restoration of FH6 configuration? Once they’ve finished with FH6, they click on another batch file that reverses the process and restores FH7 exactly as it was before?

It’s zero cost, and I’m assuming anybody writing plugins for both versions would be able to set it up and run with it. On the downside, it’s complex and potentially risky if you do it wrong, so fails the test of being easy and practical. In addition, not all Windows apps can be uninstalled from the command line. Take it as a brainstorm idea for somebody more skilled in these arts to develop...
Mark Draper
User avatar
NickWalker
Megastar
Posts: 2597
Joined: 02 Jan 2004 17:39
Family Historian: V7
Location: Lancashire, UK
Contact:

Re: Testing Plugins for V6 and V7

Post by NickWalker »

Not so -- we know Mike doesn't, from what he's said, and Nick W doesn't either (including him because he has a similar challenge).
Actually I have no particular technical problem with doing this (for example I have a Windows 7 32 bit virtual machine I could run FH6 in). It's just that it's a faff and takes up valuable time. I already devote far too much of my time to Ancestral Sources, without having to mess around testing every version in a Virtual Machine too! I'm also not clear whether this is breaking licensing rules to run FH6 in a virtual machine on the same machine that FH7 is running on. I'd like to think Calico might tell me that was OK if I asked (because they have been very supportive of AS over the years) but I've not checked.

Nick
Nick Walker
Ancestral Sources Developer

https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
Post Reply