* TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

For users to report plugin bugs and request plugin enhancements; and for authors to test new/new versions of plugins, and to discuss plugin development (in the Programming Technicalities sub-forum). If you want advice on choosing or using a plugin, please ask in General Usage or an appropriate sub-forum.
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

Mike:
I don't think I know enough about the subject to agree or disagree with you.

What I like about TNG is its use of hyperlinks, which makes it very easy to navigate through a family tree. That is why I am happy with my own system for witnessed events - I think it particularly important to be able to go from witness to owner with one click because there is often no relationship or other obvious connection between the two - and that is what ASSO provides.
avatar
mcenteno
Silver
Posts: 7
Joined: 15 Sep 2020 17:04
Family Historian: V7

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by mcenteno »

My apologies, I wished to say:
TNG just ignores a 2 _SHAR ~ 3 ROLE structure.
It only accepts 1 ASSO ~ 2 ROLE under 0 INDI or 0 FAM.

I didn't tested with a Will Event, but TNG didn't recognised the 2 _SHAR ~3 ROLE in a, for exemple, Christening Event, like this:

0 @I2440@ INDI
1 NAME ...
2 GIVN ...
2 SURN ...
1 SEX M
1 BIRT
2 DATE ...
2 PLAC ...
2 NOTE ...
1 CHR
2 DATE ...
2 PLAC ...
2 _SHAR @I399@
3 ROLE ...
2 _SHAR @I2108@
3 ROLE ...

I'm still waiting for a reply from Darrin Lithgoe.
avatar
mcenteno
Silver
Posts: 7
Joined: 15 Sep 2020 17:04
Family Historian: V7

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by mcenteno »

Update with Darrin's reply:

Hi Miguel,

TNG is able to recognize the _SHAR event, but it does not support the 3 ROLE tag, so that's why it seems to be ignoring the whole thing. Even if we could adjust the import to recognize ROLE, I'm not sure where the information would be stored, given the current database structure.
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise »

We are making progress. At least we all now agree that 2 _SHAR is handled by TNG.

@mcenteno: In your example, do the two witness Individuals @I399@ and @I2108@ have that same Christening event?
Darrin suggests they should.

@jclifford: Could you post GEDCOM fragments for the Will events with 2 _SHAR ~ 3 ROLE that produced your TNG examples.

Darrin says TNG does not support the 3 ROLE tag, so where do the Role: entries in you examples come from?

If those witnessed facts had links to the principal, like FH and other products, would you still prefer Associations?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
avatar
mcenteno
Silver
Posts: 7
Joined: 15 Sep 2020 17:04
Family Historian: V7

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by mcenteno »

Mike,
In my example, the two witnesses are Godparents in the christening event.

I would probably reply Darrin's email with copy to you two guys, what do you think?
If so, can you send me your email addresses in private?
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

I have emailed Darrin about the ROLE tag.

First example individual I22:
0 @I22@ INDI
1 NAME Thomas /Hulbert/
2 GIVN Thomas
2 SURN Hulbert
1 SEX M
1 BIRT
2 SOUR @S10@
1 CHR
2 DATE 6 SEP 1579
2 PLAC Corsham, Wiltshire
2 SOUR @S3@
3 PAGE FHL film 129377
3 QUAY 3
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Legacy
2 DATE 2 NOV 1626
2 SOUR @S23@
3 PAGE National Archives PROB 11/150
3 QUAY 3
2 NOTE 13/4d to buy a ring from brother John Hulbert (trustee of his will)
1 WILL
2 DATE 29 AUG 1632
2 _SHAR @I24@
3 ROLE Trustee
2 _SHAR @I5@
3 ROLE Trustee
---- 20 witnesses deleted to save space
2 _SHAR @I90@
3 ROLE Executor
3 NOTE after age 21
2 _SHAR @I23@
3 ROLE Overseer
2 _SHAR @I889@
3 ROLE Overseer
2 SOUR @S23@
3 QUAY 3
2 NOTE Proved 14/12/1632 PCC. Legacy to my poorer workfolk at Corsham and Castle Combe. Legacies to daughters Elizabeth Mary (both under 21) and Brdget Sherston (for her children), to my sister' s [presumably Bridget Grant deceased] children Susan Joa
3 CONC n John Jeffrey Grant Mary Crew and Sarah Barrett, my brothers James Richard Henry Hulbert Thomas Ezechiel William Wallis, my sisters Anne Slade Jean Middlecott. Executor and residue son James when 21, trustees before that brothers James Richar
3 CONC d Hulbert Thomas Ezechiel Wallis. Overseers brothers William Wallis and Henry Hulbert. Witness Heeddy?Harris.
1 DEAT

Second example - owner I8
0 @I8@ INDI
1 NAME Thomas /Hulbert/
2 GIVN Thomas
2 SURN Hulbert
1 SEX M
1 CHR
2 DATE 17 JAN 1629/30
2 PLAC Imber, Wiltshire
2 SOUR @S19@
3 PAGE Imber parish records index via Pat Meadon e-mail 27/4/2004
3 QUAY 3
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Legacy
2 DATE 12 MAY 1635
2 NOTE £400 at age 21 from father
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Apprenticeship
2 DATE 9 FEB 1647/48
2 PLAC Grocers Company, London
2 _SHAR @I774@
3 ROLE Master
2 AGE 18y
2 SOUR @S35@
3 DATA
4 TEXT son of Richard of Imber Wiltshire gentleman
1 FAMC @F25@
1 FAMS @F284@
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

tatewise wrote: 12 Feb 2021 16:22 If those witnessed facts had links to the principal, like FH and other products, would you still prefer Associations?
I would be happy with any solution as long as there were two-way links between Principal and Witness.
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

Darrin has responded:

Hi John,

Those are my words, and I remember having that exchange with someone, but after a closer examination, I can see that TNG *is* handling the ROLE tag, and your links show that. The content on the same line should become a note for the shared event. I can't remember who that was, but please tell them I was wrong.

Darrin
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise »

Excellent :D so we are nudging closer and closer to the de-facto scenario, and that gives me more fuel when I Email Darrin about adapting TNG to embrace that de-facto standard.
Miguel, please note Darrin's apology for misleading you and that 2 _SHAR ~ 3 ROLE are supported to some degree.

Perhaps, you could both follow up his reply with a request to better integrate the ROLE into the shared fact, perhaps by adding it as a suffix to the fact name, e.g. Will: Trustee and Will: Executor and Marriage: Witness, etc, etc.
Also, ask if there is any way that active both-way links can be set up between the principal fact and the shared facts, perhaps by automatically adding 1 ASSO ~ 2 RELA links.

That would make TNG more compatible with 8 other products: Behold, GedSite, Heredis, Legacy, My Family Tree, RootsMagic, TMG and Family Historian.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

I replied to Darrin:

"Thanks for that explanation.

The problem we are discussing in our forum is that nearly all of the mainstream PC genealogy programs now deal with a 2_SHAR 3 ROLE pair by
A. Showing the parent (level 1 tag) in the witness's properties
B. Adding to A the Role text
C. Adding to A a clickable link back to the Pricipal/Owner of the event
D. Adding a link in the Principal/Owner's properties to the witness.

TNG does A and B above but not C or D.
"

He responded: "Thanks John, I'll make a note to consider adding that."
avatar
mcenteno
Silver
Posts: 7
Joined: 15 Sep 2020 17:04
Family Historian: V7

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by mcenteno »

I kept my chat with Darrin and there's no evidence that he is going to change TNG.

At some point he wrote:
Thanks, but as I mentioned to John [Clifforfd], TNG was not designed to create links from the event back to the other individuals who received the shared events (or vice versa).
My following message was:
Apparently the 2 _SHAR ~ 3 ROLE is the way several softwares deals with witnessed events (Behold, GedSite, Heredis, Legacy, My Family Tree, RootsMagic, TMG and Family Historian) instead of 1 ASSO ~ 2 RELA, which links individuals no matter what event they are associated with.
I don’t know that much about Gedcom, but what if we edit the code from 2_ SHAR ~ 3 ROLE to 2 ASSO ~ 3 RELA, would TNG could accept the association between individuals?
He replied:
Yes, TNG would recognize ASSO/RELA as an "association" and should create a link.
But I wrote back:
TNG doesn’t recognise if its a 2 ASSO ~ 3 RELA, only if its a 1 ASSO ~ 2 RELA.
For example, if I edit the FH export gedcom file like the following example, nothing happens in TNG.
1 RESI
2 DATE FROM 1927 TO MAY 1941
2 PLAC Cheltenham, Gloucester, England
2 ASSO @I1@
3 RELA Resident

2 ADDR 12 Sharps Lane, Cheltenham
2 NOTE 4 bedroom bungalow.

I must edit like this:
1 RESI
2 DATE FROM 1927 TO MAY 1941
2 PLAC Cheltenham, Gloucester, England
1 ASSO @I1@
2 RELA Resident

2 ADDR 12 Sharps Lane, Cheltenham
2 NOTE 4 bedroom bungalow.

But then I lose data like 2 ADDR and 2 NOTE.
He answered:
Yes, you are correct. TNG will only recognize ASSO if it is a level 1 tag. Sorry, I should have mentioned that before. If you have other info that previously modified the preceding level 1 tag, it will need to be moved back before the instance of 1 ASSO or the parser will construe it to be part of the association structure.
At this point, I believe we could solve this issue if Export Gedcom plugin could be able to:
1) Replace 2 _SHAR ~ 3 ROLE to 1 ASSO ~ 2 RELA
2) Have the ability to reorder tags, so that 1 ASSO ~2 RELA become the last ones of the event, so other tags won't be lost.

What do you think?
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

My last chat wth Darrin on this subject was more than four years ago, so he may be more receptive now.
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

Our problem is that there seem to be only a few people who want to use the witness facility in their TNG family trees.

The fact that more genealogy programs have introduced witnesses and are using the same tags is a good argument but more people asking Darrin for it would be better.

He is unlikely hurry to make a complicated change to his system just to please two users.
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise »

We don't know how many users of TNG are struggling with Shared Facts. Not just from FH but also from other products.
Rod (koalastamps) started this thread in 2018 but has not replied recently, so I will Email him.
In the FHUG KB Member Websites there are 9 members using TNG, so could involve them.

Yesterday, I Emailed Darrin and among other things he replied "I only learned about this de facto "standard" about 24 hrs ago, ... Usually I hear about things before 8 other companies adopt them and use them for several years, so I'm still processing."
Let us wait to see the result of his processing.

Miguel, it is much more complex than that if you want Fact related both-way links.
The plugin can move the 1 ASSO ~ 2 RELA to the appropriate level but what details need to go in the 2 RELA data?
Those details must somehow couple the association to the appropriate fact, especially as there may be many such facts and associations for one person.

Your edit only handles the one-way link from Principal to each Witness and not the reverse links.
It also removes the useful TNG shared facts that are currently produced for Individual 2 _SHAR ~ 3 ROLE tags.

So if the plugin were changed it would retain the 2 _SHAR ~ 3 ROLE tags and create 1 ASSO ~ 2 RELA tags not just for the principal but also for each shared/witness person. The 2 RELA tags would need to include at least the Fact Name, Role & Date, but in the case of Family facts where TNG does not produce a shared fact at all, the RELA details must be even more precise. There is a lot to consider before a viable solution is well defined.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

I am going to post a request to the Guild of One Name Studies - they host over 300 members' websites most of which use TNG.
avatar
LeslieP
Diamond
Posts: 78
Joined: 03 Jan 2021 16:38
Family Historian: V7

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by LeslieP »

Has there been any change in status on this concern? I've used witnesses on events to great advantage ever since I was a TMG user, it's really a vital feature to me, and it's sad that TNG gets close-but-no-cigar on handling of these events.

The TNG import of the gedcom file obviously creates the events for the witnesses. Seems to me that creating the events with the name+role and including a link to the primary event owner could be added as part of the logic that creates those events. Has Darrin indicated that he would do that? Are other TNG users considering writing a Mod or anything?

Barring that - is there a way in the excellent GEDCOM Export plugin to force create events like that? That seems like an unfortunate way to consider working around it, but...

The comments I get from family that are so confused about how residence and travel facts are written "from the wrong perspective" and they take the time to tell me that they lived in their dad's house with other people, etc - all because they can't tell that this is a WITNESSED event with a link to the primary person and the other witnesses.

Anyway, sorry I may not have made much sense. Just getting to the point where this is an issue for me, and wondering if there is any update before I start tearing into other ways to do things.

Thanks!
Leslie P
Houston, TX
from TMG to RootsMagic to FH7
publish to web via TNG
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise »

Darrin keeps suggesting he may be doing something, so I keep putting off changes to the Export Gedcom Plugin, assuming there is a feasible solution. I suggest you and your family contact Darrin with your concerns.

This topic keeps recurring and then peters out through lack of interest.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
avatar
LeslieP
Diamond
Posts: 78
Joined: 03 Jan 2021 16:38
Family Historian: V7

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by LeslieP »

Lack of interest - or frustration that it's still not fixed followed by resignation and moving on to other, more fixable things? tomato - tomahto ;)

I looked at the tng.community site and found wishes/discussion going back to 2008. I will probably go ahead and try to revive the issue over there, maybe someone can figure out a mod to make the display more sensible.

In the meantime - you've already given me a "better way" - in the gedcom export I changed the witness role option to "move to fact note" and it will allow me to at least represent witnessed events differently than principal events. That lets me have something better today, now, immediately, with no major effort required. YAY!!!!

Since GEDCOM 7 expanded the
ASSO tag from being only level 1 to letting it be level 2, my hope is that eventually TNG will be tweaked to accept this - since it's ALREADY an option in the Export Gedcom plugin.

If only everyone were as thorough and efficient as you Mike!
Leslie P
Houston, TX
from TMG to RootsMagic to FH7
publish to web via TNG
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

LeslieP,

Have a look at this page of my website and tell me whether you like the way I have dealt with witnesses to Wills and with Associations:

https://hulbert.one-name.net/genealogy/ ... tree=tree1
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

Mike:
I have been trying to think through the difficulties in dealing with witness events in your Export Gedcom plug-in.
I think that the main problem is that TNG trees are equivalent to FH projects, so the same ID can be used for different people in separate trees. This means that all URLs and hyperlinks in a TNG installation - or in imported gedcoms - must contain a tree name as well as an ID.

Anyone using your plug-in to produce a gedcom for import to TNG must have a tree name (new or existing) in mind because the TNG import facility demands it , so I am wondering whether you could add an "Enter destination tree name" box on the front page of the plug-in which is only visible/active after the user has chosen TNG as the GEDCOM destination.

Then it would become much easier to add hyperlinks to Witnesses from the Principal's event.
User avatar
tatewise
Megastar
Posts: 28341
Joined: 25 May 2010 11:00
Family Historian: V7
Location: Torbay, Devon, UK
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by tatewise »

jclifford, you will have to be rather more explicit about what you want to appear in the exported GEDCOM file.
Where does the 'destination tree name' appear? I guess in the HEAD record somewhere but maybe not?

It is interesting that over the years the plugin has existed and many TNG users, the tree name has never arisen before.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
User avatar
ColeValleyGirl
Megastar
Posts: 5465
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 22:02
Family Historian: V7
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by ColeValleyGirl »

tatewise wrote: 21 Jun 2022 11:10 It is interesting that over the years the plugin has existed and many TNG users, the tree name has never arisen before.
Perhaps other users don't have multiple trees?
avatar
LeslieP
Diamond
Posts: 78
Joined: 03 Jan 2021 16:38
Family Historian: V7

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by LeslieP »

jclifford wrote: 20 Jun 2022 21:42 LeslieP,

Have a look at this page of my website and tell me whether you like the way I have dealt with witnesses to Wills and with Associations:

https://hulbert.one-name.net/genealogy/ ... tree=tree1
I do like the way you have a working link from the witnessed event back to the primary person. Very nice.
Leslie P
Houston, TX
from TMG to RootsMagic to FH7
publish to web via TNG
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

I am trying to point out that the reason why a satisfactory solution to the Witness problem in TNG has never been found is precisely BECAUSE the destination tree name is not present in any gedcom produced by FH or by the Export plug-in.
avatar
jclifford
Famous
Posts: 175
Joined: 03 Sep 2015 13:31
Family Historian: V7
Location: Kent
Contact:

Re: TNG and FH event witnesses standoff

Post by jclifford »

Mike:

Before continuing this conversation, please let me know what you find unsatisfactory in the TNG page referred to in my post of 29th June.

This example shows hyperlinks leading from all the "Witnesses" named in the will of William Wastfield to the individual details of each witness and also ASSO links from William Wastfield to three wills of other people in which he has been named. All produced by a simple piece of programming which, I think, could easily be replicated in the Export plug-in.
Post Reply