Family Historian User Group

This isn't an important issue. I'm just trying to understand what's going on.

So, I've looked in the FH help, the forum and the knowledgebase but I can't find a reference to a Source Note. It's quite possible I missed finding it - wouldn't be the first time I couldn't find something that was in plain sight. Descriptor is mentioned in passing in a post from Mike Tate where he indicates that FH7 doesn't do much with Descriptors. (Mike, apologies if I've verballed you).

The story...

Moving from from Relatively Yours 3 (RY3) to FH7 I have two main GEDCOM export "formats" I can use - PAF and a format called RY3 which is designed to be imported into another RY3 system. The GEDCOMs produced are a little different. In my initial tests I tried both formats and the PAF GEDCOM resulted in a better import into FH7 because the import created source citations. The RY3 GEDCOM didn't create source citations. Further research shows that whilst the RY3 GEDCOM does not create source citations, it does create Source Notes, and also a Descriptor which contains data that is missing from the PAF GEDCOM.

The GEDCOM format is 5.5 and is the only export option I have in RY3, and I think, from reading the GEDCOM specs, that 5.5 is the source of the issues (pun not intended).

Here are the details on a Burial imported from the PAF GEDCOM: Here are the details on a Burial imported from the RY3 GEDCOM: Notice that the PAF import shows a Burial Event but nothing about it being a cremation, but the RY3 import has an added Descriptor value which shows this Burial as a Cremation. In addition, the RY3 import has a Source Note instead of a Source.

This is the PAF GEDCOM:
1 BURI
2 DATE 8 DEC 1973
2 PLAC Orange Cemetery, Orange, New South Wales, Australia
2 RIN 2111
2 NOTE Ashes placed in Niche Wall MM Location # 103
3 CONT Funeral Director: F Smith, Orange
3 CONT
3 CONT Plaque says:
3 CONT
3 CONT In Loving Memory of
3 CONT Victor Herbert Newton
3 CONT Passed Away 6th Dec 1973
3 CONT Aged 55 years
2 SOUR @S6@
3 PAGE Orange Cemetery Transcriptions
3 QUAY 3

This is the RY3 GEDCOM:
1 BURI
2 TYPE D07 Death, Cremation
2 DATE 8 DEC 1973
2 PLAC Orange Cemetery, Orange, New South Wales, Australia
2 RIN 2111
2 NOTE Ashes placed in Niche Wall MM Location # 103
3 CONT Funeral Director: F Smith, Orange
3 CONT
3 CONT Plaque says:
3 CONT
3 CONT In Loving Memory of
3 CONT Victor Herbert Newton
3 CONT Passed Away 6th Dec 1973
3 CONT Aged 55 years
2 SOUR
3 TYPE C00 Cemetery Transcripts, Not Otherwise Specified
3 PAGE Orange Cemetery Transcriptions
3 QUAY 3

It's the TYPE tag that becomes the Descriptor in FH7.

And the PAF GEDCOM has the SOURce reference as @S6@, which is:
0 @S6@ SOUR
1 TITL C0
in the GEDCOM, whereas it is just SOUR in the RY3 GEDCOM. I'm assuming this is where the issues lie as the RY3 GEDCOM doesn't have any @Sx@ tags at all. (Oh, the TITL is just C0 in this example, but other sources do have a proper TITL tag).

I'm not worried about the differences and missing data as I plan on redoing all of my citations anyway, but as I said at the start of this post, I just want to understand what's going on.

Thanks, Glenn

GEDCOM 5.5 is not an issue because the SOUR structures are the same as in GEDCOM 5.5.1
In cases like this, you will need to refer to the GEDCOM specification, but it is not an easy read!

As we have experienced so often with RY3, it creates invalid GEDCOM files.
The SOUR tag with subsidiary TYPE and PAGE tags is invalid GEDCOM (as indicated by the UDF star-burst bullets).
Yes, FH calls a valid TYPE tag a Descriptor, which is what it is.

Let me explain the difference between Source cross-references and Source notes by analogy with the NOTE tag.

The Burial fact has a local Note where the text is local to the NOTE tag:
1 BURI
2 NOTE Ashes placed in Niche Wall MM Location...
Alternatively, the Burial fact could cross-reference a shared Note record where the NOTE tag identifies the Note record:
1 BURI
2 NOTE @N6@ ( This cross-refers to a Note record with Record Id = 6 )

The PAF GEDCOM uses a shared Source record where the SOUR tag cross-reference identifies the Source record:
1 BURI
2 SOUR @S6@ ( This cross-refers to a Source record with Record Id = 6 )
The RY3 GEDCOM omits the SOUR cross-reference so by default is a Source Note but with blank text:
1 BURI
2 SOUR ( A genuine Source Note would have local text here like the local Note above )
Maybe the TYPE tag is somehow meant to identify the Source record?

I'm not sure what the RY3 2 TYPE D07 Death, Cremation is meant to indicate.
Are there any clues in RY3 that explain what D07 means?
This Burial event should of course be preceded by a Death event for the person.
If there had been a cremation then there should be a Cremation event for the person too.
So it is not clear what the TYPE information is telling us.

Hi Mike,

You are so right about the GEDCOM specs not being an easy read. It seems like they were written by a committee, and a dysfunctional one at that!

Thanks for the explanation and examples. That explains the Source Note vs Source.

As for the 2 TYPE D07 Death, Cremation, this is part of the coding system used in RY3 and defines the type of event. There are about 150 of these Event Types, divided into groups such as Accomplishments, Death, Educational, Travel, Military Service, Religious and so on. They are basically the equivalent of Facts in FH7.

All "Death" related events have a code starting with "D", so they are:
D Death
D00 Not Otherwise Specified
D02 Death
D03 Funeral/Memorial Service
D04 Burial
D05 Will / Administration
D06 Probate
D07 Cremation
D09 Obituary

They have settings about how they are used and have timelines such as Post-Death, Post-Burial, Life, etc, and there are some limitations in their use. For example, when adding a Burial your only options are D04 Burial or D07 Cremation, when adding a Death, the only option is D02 Death. Use of these codes changes the wording in event texts, so a D07 Cremation code causes the text to display "Cremated at ..." instead of "Buried at ...". RY3 does allows you to bury someone without a death event, although it does change text sentences to say "Died" simply based on having the burial event.

I've previously discovered that the PAF GEDCOM has all burials and cremations listed as Burial and no mention of Cremations. This is one of the reasons I looked a little deeper at the RY3 GEDCOM as this includes these event codes and so differentiates between Burials and Cremations.

Most of these event codes are included in the PAF GEDCOM (in the Source @Sx@ section) and have descriptions such as:

0 @S17@ SOUR
1 TITL I59 Published Books, Electoral Rolls
0 @S18@ SOUR
1 TITL F40 Non-Church Burial, Burial Register
0 @S19@ SOUR
1 TITL C14 Cemetery Transcripts, Presbyterian
0 @S20@ SOUR
1 TITL G46 Miscellaneous, Shipping Records
0 @S21@ SOUR
1 TITL I56 Published Books, Family Histories
0 @S22@ SOUR
1 TITL I69 Published Books, Census Records

Only a small number of them have no descriptions and some (like Burial vs Cremation) are missing altogether. I'll be looking at this in RY3 to see if I can discover why.

It's not a huge issue because, as I've said previously, I plan on redoing all my sources and citations in FH7 (probably using Ancestral Sources). It would be nice, though, to have all my data come across, even if I do replace it, rather than maybe missing something. But I can always do a check between RY3 and FH7 if needed. I've worked on data migrations between competing ERP and Billing systems, and this wouldn't be the first time i've had to have both systems open side-by-side to do a manual comparison!

Thanks for the help.

Glenn