* Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Importing from or exporting to another genealogy program. This is the place to ask.
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E Wilcock
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Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 27 Apr 2019 11:46

I am having problems exporting a single occupation field to Gedsite to go on my website.
I have till now used a work round, creating an undated general occupation event which was at the top of the fh list and was therefore the one selected by Gedsite for display.

I am currently dealing with my largest and most disordered tree. The Occupation Event has been used for may events other than paid employment, including holiday trips.

In some cases I have tried to solve the problem by copying a dated employment event and then removing the date but I have been unable to shift it to the top of the list in the All tab. It seems to get stuck half way up.

The difficulty is further complicated by the import from TMG which places the earliest occupation event in the Occupation field on the Person's Main tab regardless of its actual importance.
I am having difficulty removing this from the main tab and replacing it with the principal occupation or profession. It seems one cant move it out to free up the Main Tab field field without deleting it which I do not want.

There are really two questions here. How eventually to tidy up the Main tab import of occupations from TMG?

And more vital at the moment, how best to manage the export of a single occupation to Gedsite.

One solution might be to create a custom tab Main Occupation (always undated) for export to Gedsite. And use Mike's plug in to change an existing Event. But I have 2,512 people on this tree and would welcome advice and suggestions.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by tatewise » 27 Apr 2019 13:06

The first thing to remind you about is the data presented on the Main tab.
Those fields are NOT separate entities, but are simply a summary of what is on the Facts/All tabs.
It is nothing to do with importing from TMG.
The Occupation box on the Main tab always shows INDI.OCCU[1], i.e. the 1st instance of the Occupation events as shown on the All tab.

In FH there is currently no way to choose a 'preferred' Occupation.

The Main tab can be customised to show the last Occupation (INDI.OCCU[last]) as well as the first Occupation and also show the penultimate Occupation (INDI.OCCU[last-1]) too.
But remember that whatever you choose applies to the Main tab of EVERY Individual.

I cannot explain why you cannot move an undated Occupation near the top of the All tab.
Actually, any Occupation, even if dated, should be able to be moved near the top of the All tab.
Are you confusing it with the Facts tab, which will always show Occupations after any Birth or Baptism events, because of the Normal Time Frame rules? But even that should be OK, as there won't be any earlier Occupation events.
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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 27 Apr 2019 14:46

Thank you Mike.
No, I didnt realise that the Occupation on the Main tab was the first instance. Unless set otherwise. That explains why many of my distinguished engineers are reduced to apprentices.

However, if I alter it to the final occupation, that still wont be the first occupation to export to Gedsite in the gedcom, will it?

It is only in the last month or two that I have been using fh for normal family history work. I have been using your quick family facts a lot - so thank you for that. It is invaluable.

Other researchers (DNA contacts) have added new branches to my old trees. So I need to update the website too.

I liked to show a single Occupation event on my website, in order to distinguish between men of the same name in the same village or district but with different occupations. All went well on simpler trees but I have spent a whole day failing to do this on a large messy tree and may need to give up.

I use your Fact query to show who has more than one Occupation event. But in fh (unlike TMG) it isnt possible to single out just one of those events and change it to Profession. So I think I am beaten. it just isnt worth it.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by tatewise » 27 Apr 2019 16:04

Your summary is pretty thorough.

You could Vote for Wish List Ref 11 Mark preferred Event/Attribute fact.

That also suggests a way to identify the preferred fact by using the standard GEDCOM subsidiary TYPE Descriptor.
That is set in the All tab by right-clicking on any event and choosing Add Descriptor.
You can set any value and then perhaps GedSite can filter the Occupation on that Type field value.

Unfortunately, it does not help with the FH Main tab display, but it could be used in Diagrams and Reports to identify the primary Occupation.
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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 28 Apr 2019 17:45

Mike, I will post an update to this, in case you have suggestions.

I spent the whole of yesterday trying to persuade Gedsite to show only only one Occupation and not two.

Altering the settings in Gedsite just perplexed me and had no effect. John Cardinal asked to see my file, but today I investigated further and concluded that the duplication of Occupation in one particular tree only does not arise in my Gedsite options settings but in the Gedcom output from fh.

If I look at my Facts lists - I can se multiple (three) tags marked Occupation. One is a family event where TMG had two principles, e.g. partners in a firm. The two others are Individual -
The Import from TMG shows Occupation as an event which fh imports as a custom tag. Whereas I seem to remember that in gedcom it is a standard tag and an attribute.
Thus my fh file has two different tags labelled Occupation, both of which are exported by your Export Gedcom plug in.

The Gedcom tag types used by fh are a problem for me - family and Individual are distinct from each other, and so are Attribute and Event. It think it may be difficult to convert one type of Tag to the other but is it possible to convert all my Occupation attribute tags to Events?

And when I click to add an Occupation field in my daily use of fh, or type occupation into the field on the main page of the Property Box, how do I know whether I am adding an Event or an attribute?

My Sadler tree has come through four software programmes - Pedigree, Generations, TMG and now fh. So I dont know whether this glitch will be encountered by other fh users or not.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by LornaCraig » 28 Apr 2019 18:47

And when I click to add an Occupation field in my daily use of fh, or type occupation into the field on the main page of the Property Box, how do I know whether I am adding an Event or an attribute?
The important difference between an event and an attribute is that an attribute has a value and an event does not. The value field is where you describe the attribute. For example in the case of an occupation this might be teacher or carpenter or agricultural labourer. So if you are able to enter the value/description of the occupation you must be using an attribute. If you were using an event you would only be able to enter date, place, address.

If you use Tools>Fact Types and show <All> Fact Sets, do you have two Occupation facts? Is one of them a custom event? I am not familiar with TMG but am puzzled as to how it could have handled occupation as an event. Where does the description of the occupation go?
Lorna

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 28 Apr 2019 19:17

Lorna, it goes in what you may call the Note field. But for me that is the place for any text that isnt a name or a date or a place.
I have always used the Occupation field with a date to record a career - like the year someone joined or left a company. So it becomes a biography. The days are long gone when a person had one occupation throughout their life.
If I open Roots Magic, I can see the multiple occupation fields with dates - imported problem free.
I dont think one should labour this point too much. fh imports them too.
In the early days fh was rigidly fixed to Gedcom and it put some people off including me. But it is now flexible and tolerant - one can use it as one wants. There are only rare occasions like this when the import export situation becomes a bit complicated.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by tatewise » 28 Apr 2019 21:19

I can explain what has happened and possibly how to fix it.

The standard GEDCOM Occupation (OCCU) is an Individual blue bullet Attribute and as Lorna says the actual occupation is the Attribute value. It is that value in th1st Individual Occupation that appears in the Main tab.

The import from TMG where a Family couple share an Occupation has become a single red bullet Family custom fact Occupation Event.
That is similar to the way a Family couple shared Census Event becomes a single red bullet Census (family) Event in FH and fixed by the Migrate Census Family to Individual Events Plugin.

Those two types of Occupation fact are very different. Can you see that, or does it need further explanation?

The solution is to convert each custom Family Occupation Event into standard Individual Occupation Attributes.
That can be done manually one by one, or I have a Plugin that could easily be adapted to automate the process.

BTW: I have been following your GedSite postings on the subject of multiple Occupation facts.
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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 29 Apr 2019 07:21

Thank you for following this Mike.
I do understand the difference between Family facts and individual facts.
However I dont think I have any Family facts for Occupation.

However, I do not know how to run your fact query to differentiate between family and individual facts and discover who has what. Nor how to discover on my tree which Occupation facts are Events and which are attributes.

I looked at your change any fact plug in, hoping to convert all attribute Occupations to Facts but the warning about creating witnesses notes? worried me. or I didnt understand the actual warning!

Meanwhile I have sent John Cardinal (author of Gedsite) the files he requested but America is asleep just now.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by tatewise » 29 Apr 2019 09:53

Sorry, but it seems you don't understand how to differentiate between Events and Attributes nor between Individual and Family facts.

Events versus Attributes

On the Facts tab click on any fact and check the lower pane where it shows Date, Place, Address, etc.
Events show the label name of the fact just above the Date field.
Attributes show a similar label name followed by a colon (:) and a box holding the value of the attribute.
e.g. For an Occupation Attribute that value is the occupation of the person.

On the All tab there are similar differences if you click on the left-hand [+] to expand any fact.
Events show their name and clicking in the space to its right does nothing.
Attributes show a similar name but with a value box to its right that can be edited.

Individual versus Family

The Facts tab fact types are explained in Knowledge Base > Property Box Dialogue: Individuals: Facts Tab.
Individual facts have a blue bullet and in an Individual Property Box appear on the All tab.
Family facts have a red bullet and in a Family Property Box appear on the All tab.
Examples of Family facts are Marriage & Divorce that NEVER appear in the All tab of an Individual Property Box.

Tools > Fact Types

This lists all the defined facts, and if you tick Show Hidden includes <undefined> facts used by the Project.
In the first column the blue/red bullet identifies Individual versus Family facts.
The Type column identifies Events versus Attributes.
The Fact Set column identifies Standard GEDCOM facts, and all others are custom facts.
The Filter options top right allow subsets of facts to be listed such as Family Events only.

Armed with the above characteristics you can discover what types of Occupation facts you have in your Project.
Please report back with what you find.

BTW: Run my All Facts Filter by Label custom Query with Occupation as the Label.
Click on the Record/Owner column to bring Family facts to the top saying ...of <husband> and <wife>.

BTW: In GEDCOM terms the standard Occupation Attribute has the tag OCCU, whereas a custom Occupation Event will have a tag such as EVEN-OCCUPATION inside FH and in the GEDCOM file will have 1 EVEN followed by 2 TYPE Occupation.
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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 29 Apr 2019 10:07

Thank you. I can now see that there is for my example person a family fact for Occupation, brought in from TMG, showing that both he and his wife were active in the local literary society.

So I am beginning to wonder whether fh was the right choice - or how to convert all these shared Events. I suspect you have told me before but I cant remember anything these days.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by tatewise » 29 Apr 2019 10:21

OK, I'm glad my guesses were correct and we now simply need to deal with those custom Family Occupation facts.
You say: "I am beginning to wonder whether fh was the right choice" ~ oh ye of little faith!

The question is: "What way would you like those facts to be converted?"

1) Please confirm whether they are an Event or an Attribute and where the occupation value is saved.
Is it perhaps in the Note field or the attribute value box?

2) Do you want the husband and wife to both have a standard Individual Occupation Attribute?
Or perhaps just the husband has a standard Individual Occupation Attribute with his wife as a Fact Witness, and if so what is her Role?

When it is clear what is required, I can adapt a Plugin to make the changes.
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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 29 Apr 2019 11:32

That is very kind Mike. I myself dont need to change anything. The purpose is only to use Gedsite to put up the basic web trees I like. BMD, Baptism and Burial and one instance of Occupation.

John Cardinal will look at my exported gedcom (exported using your plug in for which many thanks) and I will come back to you please, if he asks me to make any changes my end.
I now need to leave this for today as have other things to do.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by JohnnyCee » 29 Apr 2019 17:15

Evelyn,

I will not comment on how you should arrange your occupation data in Family Historian. I will respond to messages to me where you described the outcome you want in GedSite, which was to restrict the output to a single, primary Occupation tag. I will use GedSite's terminology of "tag" to refer to what may be stored as an event/fact/attribute, etc., in other tools such as FH.

I reviewed your GEDCOM file, and the issue does not have to do with the differences between attributes and events. The issue is that some people have more than one primary Occupation tag. The root cause of that is that some of Occupation tags have more than one principal and GedSite assigns "primary-ness" based on the unique combination of principals assigned to the tag.

There are multiple reasons why some Occupation tags have multiple principals. These occur in the GEDCOM file you shared with me:

- OCCU Occupation tags for individuals that are shared with another principal.

- Generic EVEN/TYPE Occupation tags for individuals that are shared with another principal.

- Generic EVEN/TYPE Occupation tags for families where each spouse is a principal to the event.

Given that you want your output to include only a single Occupation tag, I suggest that you should not assign multiple people to the same attribute or individual event, and you should not use family events for occupations. If that is not desirable, the you will have to accept that the output will include more than one Occupation tag. Alternatively, you could use a different attribute/fact/event/tag to record occupations with more than one principal, such as partnerships.

Further, you have used Occupation tags for activities that are not really occupations, such as membership in a literary society. I would use a different tag for memberships. That would reduce the number of cases where multiple people share an Occupation tag.

I will post more GedSite-specific information on the GS-L list as a reply to your post there.

I hope this helps.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 30 Apr 2019 09:03

Mike,
I have been using your query All facts filter by label. And even before you suggested it.

It shows only two uses of Occupation as family facts. I can edit them out by hand.

The differentiation of attribute versus event is more of a problem. I dont seem to have a column revealing this? The fact line just gives the label. And looking down the list of things I can add I dont see where to add it.
Could you post here please either paste here the column line, or tell me how to do it?

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 30 Apr 2019 10:25

Ignore my request Mike. I edited out the only two shared occupations on the project, used your plug in to export a new gedcom and have generated a new web tree which is now in place.

I appreciate your help and forbearance. I regret very much that my choice of fh and my haphazard and personal use of genealogy software have been extracted from a private gedcom and used on Google groups and on this forum in defence of Gedsite.

The shared Occupation events were imported from TMG as family facts. Gedsite was designed as a successor software to Second Site which created websites directly from TMG files. So one might have assumed that some thought would have been given to the problems that might be encountered when handling trees with this provenance

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by tatewise » 30 Apr 2019 10:29

I think you still need to resolve the Attribute versus Event problem that may be more widespread than just Occupations.

Regarding the Query, those Occupation facts that have text in the Value column must be Attributes.
Where the Value column is empty then the Occupation fact is probably an Event.
Double-click on the Occupation label to open the Facts tab and check if there is a value box after the label.
If too many to check by hand then add the following Column but move it up so it is near the left of Result Set:
Heading: Event?
Expression: =IsEvent(%FACT%)

I would put money on the reason why you have those Occupation Events as well as Occupation Attributes.
In TMG check the Master Tag Type List and I bet there are two entries for Occupation.
One will have the standard GEDCOM tag OCCU.
The other will have a different GEDCOM tag definition, but if via the View button and Other tab you change it to OCCU then it will import to FH as an Occupation Attribute and the problem goes away.

When you imported the TMG GEDCOM into FH did you check the Exceptions Log report that would almost certainly have said that the values on those Occupation Events was being moved to the Note field.

If you have only recently migrated this Project from TMG to FH and made few if any changes, then I recommend you similarly check all the other Tag Types and perform the TMG Export and FH Import from scratch. This has the advantage that the occupation value on each Occupation fact will remain and not get moved to the Note field.

If it is too late for that then use the Change Any Fact Tag Plugin to convert those custom Occupation Events to standard Occupation Attributes, but that will not move the occupation value that is in the Note field back into the attribute value.

On a different but related topic, as pointed out by John C, your FH Fact Type definitions for Occupation have no Witness Role Sentence Template components. So their related Narrative Report sentences are probably badly worded.
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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 30 Apr 2019 11:17

Mike - I ran the query for Occupation. 513 results of which only 22 instances have a blank Value column. They are all dated.

I rather think that these were added after the project was already in fh. The import from TMG created custom Occupation events. But the fh additions are all attributes.

And yes this project was unstable in TMG and it is far to late to re-import it. Also I have 8 family projects in fh , none properly tidied and I dont have the time or motivation. Maybe next winter. I do more genealogy in winter. But until the problem arises, I feel we can ignore it?

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by tatewise » 30 Apr 2019 11:31

OK, your wish is my command :D
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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 30 Apr 2019 11:44

Thank you. I am about to leave for dentist.

However, I couldnt resist trying the new column which you wrote me.

It holds only one record. From which I conclude that I have regularly added dates and notes to my Occupation (attribution) entries.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 30 Apr 2019 14:55

Forgive me Mike - I would like to ask your further opinion.

All my personal family trees - 8 Projects are now in fh.

I have examined them all for shared Occupation events. I found two only and removed them.

I ran the Event by label query on all 8 trees. The only Project which includes any Occupation event is my husband's maternal tree Haigh which has been around since the birth of home computing. It has 219 uses of occupation of which 57 are not an Event.

Do you think I should deal with this and if so, how?

And coincidentally running the queries and counting the results has resulted in m first ever crash of fh which closed itself down.
Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: Fh.exe
Application Version: 6.2.7.0
Application Timestamp: 5b07f9da
Fault Module Name: Fh.exe
Fault Module Version: 6.2.7.0
Fault Module Timestamp: 5b07f9da
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 001d8880
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.768.3
Locale ID: 2057
Additional Information 1: 0a9e
Additional Information 2: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789
Additional Information 3: 0a9e
Additional Information 4: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by tatewise » 30 Apr 2019 19:54

Wow! Winter got here quickly :D

Firstly, when you talk about "shared Occupation events" do you mean single Family Occupation Events ?
If FH terminology, shared events are those with Fact Witnesses that use the _SHAR tag.

Not sure why FH would crash, but to count entries use the Query Records in Result Set count bottom right.

In the Rows tab, add filter Exclude unless =IsEvent(%FACT%) is true to count Events.
Change it to Exclude if =IsEvent(%FACT%) is true to count Attributes.

You are saying that the Haigh Project has 57 Occupation Attributes and 162 Occupation Events.
So, Yes, I would deal with them now, while the topic is fresh in your mind.
Otherwise, we will have to start from scratch come next Winter!
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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by E Wilcock » 01 May 2019 08:46

Agreed Mike. Thank you for the extra rows for the query and for your help in sorting this.

I have removed all shared (family) Occupation facts from all my projects - There were only three or four in all.

I do not think I have any witnessed Occupation facts. The reason I dont have witness sentences is that I avoided using witnesses for many years. For a short time I used them for census entries. And now I use them only to enter actual witnesses to marriages, deaths etc.

The Project where I still have Occupation events is not the Sadler Project that presented difficulties in Gedsite at the start of this thread . It is my husband's maternal Haigh tree.

But I do need to deal with it. Because contrary to what John suggested, Gedsite does not handle this.

A trial run creating a site from this Haigh Project with Gedsite shows that the Occupation Events output only date and place - presumably because the attribute field is empty.

I dont know how this situation arose in this particular tree. But it has a different history from all my other trees. It may have many long narrative notes and had local custom sentences because it was used to provide a full Second Site website presentation (on disc) for a family reunion in 2007.

It was then the first tree I brought into fh (using gedcom at that time) and was dismayed to lose the customised sentences and narrative. I may well have taken it back into TMG. I dont know how these Occupation events have arisen.

If I run your Change any fact Tag to alter all custom Occupation Events to the Standard attribute I will still have the empty fields for definition. But one cant shift the note to the definition field as presumably my essays from the family reunion will prove too long?

It may be better to create a brief Occupation Attribute for each person and leave the rest alone? I would like your opinion.

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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by jbtapscott » 01 May 2019 09:48

Evelyn - you say "A trial run creating a site from this Haigh Project with Gedsite shows that the Occupation Events output only date and place - presumably because the attribute field is empty." - have you checked your sentence structure in GedSite?. I had instances of this type of behaviour when I started "playing" with GedSite when first released but invariably it came to my not having set up the sentence structure correctly (e.g. I had omitted a Note / Memo Parameter or similar). I found the Utilities / Record Browser option in GedSite extremely handy for identifying this sort of thing!.
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Re: Occupation Problem TMG to fh to Gedsite

Post by tatewise » 01 May 2019 10:12

You must have at least one Witnessed Occupation Attribute, because in the [GS] Digest on Tue 30/04/2019 for a GEDCOM you sent, John C says it contains a _SHAR tag Witness:
0 @I2@ INDI
...
1 OCCU Dr Sadler snr took into partnership a Mr Ibeson who paid him £100 and was to have one third of the proceeds.
2 _SHAR @I1678@
3 ROLE Princ.
2 NOTE Dr Sadler snr took into partnership a Mr Ibeson who paid him £100 and was to have one third of the proceeds. This partjnership too was eventually disolved and Dr Sadler practised on his own until his son was old enough to join him.

In this case, a standard OCCU attribute is shared with another person who has the role "Princ." which GedSite interprets as a request to make the other person a principal. The other person, #1678, is not the spouse of #2, so a generic family event would not work, though that doesn't really matter to the result.

GedSite treats this as an Occupation tag and it is primary because it is the first Occupation tag for the combination of principals #2 and #1678.
Your comments are entirely accurate about the custom Occupation Events having no attribute values (which only apply to Attributes) and that the Note text would be too large.

I would help to know a bit more about these custom Occupation Events in order to advise you.

Is there predominantly only one such fact per person?
If more than one per person, how many do they typically have?

Do such people usually have Occupation Attributes as well?

What does the Note text talk about, is it really about occupations, or a more general biography?

I am thinking that it might be better to convert those Occupation Events to some other custom fact such as Employment or Biography, so that GedSite does not confuse them with Occupation facts as happens now according to John C in that same [GS] Digest:
0 @I163@ INDI
...
1 EVEN
2 TYPE Occupation

GedSite treats this as an Occupation tag and it is primary because it is the first Occupation tag. This example is only interesting because of the lack of a useful text value.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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