Age at Census issue

billbirchall · Post by **billbirchall** » 30 Mar 2008 15:11

I am researching my great grandfathers history.His name was Hugh Connor or O'Connor. He was born in Ireland, but I do not know where. I have a problem starting to check for his birth as I have the following, confusing info.:-
1861 Census - Age 64
1871 Census - Age 78
1881 Census - Age 90
Death Certificate 1881 - 66!!
It could be that the death Certificate is not him, but at the time of death, he lived in Tudhoe, County Durham, with his son Thomas and he was the only Hugh Connor to die that year. Furthermore, the death Certificate, was signed by a Thomas Connor.
I cannot believe that the Census can be so wrong, with the ages, but also living to 90 must have been very unusual, in those days, particularly in a mining community.
Any idea, how I can validate his date of birth as I am very keen to know, from what part of Ireland, he came from.

ID:2833

philjo · Post by **philjo** » 30 Mar 2008 18:32

Have you located a burial for him - what age is on the burial register or gravestone (if there is one).

what age/place of birth is given on the 1851 census?

Jeremy

jmurphy · Post by **jmurphy** » 30 Mar 2008 19:22

Are you sure you are looking at the correct set of census records?

In my husband's family, I have a Robert who has sons named Robert and Thomas -- who have sons named Robert and Thomas -- you can see where this all could lead.

If I took all the census records I have found so far for his family, pulled out a few that made it clear what is going on, and gave you all the rest, I could easily present you with a data set that looks just like what you have.

Maybe those census records do belong to your family, but they belong to a relative of your great-grandfather's (an uncle or cousin), who is also named Hugh.

Work from what you know. Try to find other information (not census) that would tell you more about your great-grandfather, making it easier to recognize his records when you find them.

Jan

billbirchall · Post by **billbirchall** » 31 Mar 2008 14:18

philjo/jmurphy

I have checked the National Burial Register on FindMyPast with no result.All I have is the Death Certificate. I have no access to 1851, so I do not know the age then. I am sure that the Census personnel are correct as my Great Grandfather William is on with Hugh and he ties in with my Tree. I have checked with Durham registry office and they say that there was not another Hugh Connor in Tudhoe, Co. Durham, which was a small mining community.
It also seems very difficult to find any info. on Hugh. I know that he worked in the mines and according to the 1871 census was a Labourer in the mines at 78 years of age!!In the 1881 Census is occupation was Annuitant to Sons.

Thanks for your response, it is much appreciated.

YouTube · Post by **Jane** » 31 Mar 2008 14:55

Is your death cert from the local office or the GRO, if it's a GRO one, it might be worth asking the local office to cross check it, as I have seen certificates which have been cross subscribed.

Might this be him, or the one on the Death Certificate on the 1851

Name: Hugh Conner
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1815
Gender: Male
Where born: Louth, Ireland

Civil Parish: Stockton On Tees
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Occupation : Foundry Man Labourer

Registration district: Stockton
Sub-registration district: Yarm
ED, institution, or vessel: 2l
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 49

Hugh Conner abt 1815 Louth, Ireland Stockton On Tees, Durham
View Record

Match quality: 1 out of 5 John Conner abt 1850 Sunderland, Durham, England Stockton On Tees, Durham
View Record

Match quality: 1 out of 5 Mary Conner abt 1824 Louth, Ireland Stockton On Tees, Durham
View Record

Match quality: 1 out of 5 Maryr Conner abt 1847 Sunderland, Durham, England Stockton On Tees, Durham

billbirchall · Post by **billbirchall** » 31 Mar 2008 15:23

Jane
Thanks for the reply. My Death Cert. was from the GRO, but I had previous discussions with the local office in Durham, who had already suggested, this individual.
The death registration district is Durham, Sub - District Saint Oswald, and he died at Tudhoe Grange, Tudhoe, with the informant being Thomas his Son. Everything seems to tie up but the age!

Unfortunately, I do not think that your Hugh Conner, is the same person unless they have misspelled his name also.

Regards

Bill

Post by **NickWalker** » 31 Mar 2008 17:37

Spelling of names is largely irrelevant before the latter part of the 1800s. Most people couldn't write so had no idea how their name was spelt. They just told the person filling in the form or carrying out the baptism/marriage/burial their name and it was up to the person to interpret what they hear and 'guess' at a spelling. So Connor or Conner could certainly refer to the same person.

The ages are strange though if the censuses and death all refer to the same person.

Post by **NickWalker** » 31 Mar 2008 17:53

I've found your 1861 Hugh O'Connor (64) with with wife Mary (40) and children Margaret (15), John (11), William (4), Thomas (2).

The reference that Jane found definitely seems to refer to the same family as Hugh Conner (34 at first glance but it could be 54), Mary (27), Margaret (4) and John (10 months) are there. Birth places seem to match.

So it looks like Hugh and Mary were both from Louth, Ireland.

Now if he was 34 in 1851 then it would make his age at death seem correct. However, it makes the ages in other census records very innaccurate.

If you message me with your email address I'll send you the census image.

Nick

Post by **NickWalker** » 31 Mar 2008 18:59

You could look for their marriage if it was in Louth here:

http://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com

It might be best to try to confirm the maiden name of his wife Mary first by obtaining the birth certificate of one of their children if you haven't already.

billbirchall · Post by **billbirchall** » 01 Apr 2008 10:49

Nick
Thanks for your very useful information. My email address is :-
***@***.com

Thanks, you have been most helpful

Regards

Bill Birchall

Post by **NickWalker** » 01 Apr 2008 11:31

I've emailed you Bill. I've also taken the liberty of blanking out your email address in your previous post as it isn't a good idea to put your email address on a forum as the spam email senders have programs that search for email addresses across websites.

Cheers

Nick

KSS · Post by **KSS** » 01 Apr 2008 18:29

Nick,
Thanks for posting the link to the ifhf site. I clicked on it out of idle curiousity, entered a few names 'just for laughs' and found a family link which I didn't know existed.

KSS · Post by **KSS** » 01 Apr 2008 18:32

And I can't spell 'curiosity'.

Post by **NickWalker** » 01 Apr 2008 18:43

Yes I believe the site has only just been launched. It allowed me to find an Irish marriage I'd been hoping to find for 15 years.

ireneblackburn · Post by **ireneblackburn** » 01 Apr 2008 19:08

Have you looked at

http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/newsearch.php

for a burial record.

Irene B

ian112 · Post by **ian112** » 02 Apr 2008 17:15

hi
Have you had a look at Durham online a very useful website.

Ian

billbirchall · Post by **billbirchall** » 10 Apr 2008 14:49

IreneB/Ian112

Apologies for not replying sooner. I have contacted Durham and obtained the Burial Records ( In Latin, confirming he was a Catholic). Very good site and extremely helpful. I have also applied for the birth certificate of one of the children, which will be another check.

Regards

Bill

billbirchall · Post by **billbirchall** » 12 Apr 2008 13:43

Nick,
You said:'Spelling of names is largely irrelevant before the latter part of the 1800s. Most people couldn't write so had no idea how their name was spelt. They just told the person filling in the form or carrying out the baptism/marriage/burial their name and it was up to the person to interpret what they hear and 'guess' at a spelling. So Connor or Conner could certainly refer to the same person.

The ages are strange though if the censuses and death all refer to the same person.'

You were so right!! I have just received a birth certificate, for one of my gg grandmothers children, in order to establish her maiden name. She has marked the Cert. as you could not write. Her name appears to be Macmany, or Macnany, either of which seem unbelievably unusual names and I could find nothing on the ifhs website. Even 'Googling' the name in the UK, only brought up one website which seemed irrelevant. If the name was written how it sounded, and the mother could not write, it could be Mc Namee or other variations. How can one find out, the definitive spelling??

Bill

ADC65 · Post by **ADC65** » 12 Apr 2008 23:12

Hi Bill

I think you have answered your own question in a way - there *is* no definitive spelling! It certainly makes things more, err, interesting trying to find people in indexes, etc., as you have found out.

The way I think about is that our ancestors lived in compeletely different world than today where one needs proof of identity in triplicate to carry out even mundane tasks.

My own surname (Cook) is relatively easy in terms of spelling, but when one takes account of mishearings, mistranscriptions, etc., all sorts of variations appear from Cork to Crock. Sometimes these documented names revert to their original Cook on later documents, sometimes they stay the same and get passed down that family - which is what I mean when I say there is no definitive surname.

jmurphy · Post by **jmurphy** » 13 Apr 2008 07:10

Take a look sometime at Rob Noles' website for all the Knowles/Knoles/Noles families.

On his 'history of the name' page
http://www.kknfa.org/knowles_name.htm
he lists over 80 different spellings.

Jan

billbirchall · Post by **billbirchall** » 13 Apr 2008 09:48

Thanks everyone, for being so helpful. The thought of how many permutations there might be, of an Irish name sounding like Macnany,does not fill me with any great optimism!! I have sent away for another of her later children, in the hope that the name is spelled differently and gives me a lead.

Bill

jmurphy · Post by **jmurphy** » 13 Apr 2008 17:31

Yes, it is a daunting task!

You may be able to find software that can help. I found a shareware program to help with German surnames -- type in the name as you have it, and it generates possible spelling variants.

Edited to add: this may be the one -- it looks as if he has added to the program and it does some Irish surnames too:

http://home.triad.rr.com/combsfamily/sslmain.html

This is the blog entry that sent me to the program linked to above:

http://legacynews.typepad.com/legacy_ne ... are--.html

These may also be of interest:

http://www.johngrenham.com/software/surnames.shtml

Family Search Labs' Standard Finder is here:
http://labs.familysearch.org/

This site is new to me - I haven't investigated it yet:
http://www.namethesaurus.com/

Hope this helps.

Jan

billbirchall · Post by **billbirchall** » 13 Apr 2008 17:56

JMurphy

Thanks for your very helpful suggestion. I have already downloaded SSL and it looks good.

Regards

Bill

billbirchall · Post by **billbirchall** » 13 Apr 2008 18:01

JMurphy

Thanks for your very helpful suggestion. I have already downloaded SSL and it looks good.I also looked at http://www.namethesaurus.com/ It came up with 251 suggestions and just under 6000 soundex!! I would need another program to sort through this.

Regards

Bill

jmurphy · Post by **jmurphy** » 13 Apr 2008 18:04

SSL won't allow very many searches before it starts nagging you to donate, but it is an interesting program.

It may also help to do a Google search for blog entries and articles on finding surname variants.

There are several different problems --

1) variant spellings written down by how the name sounded
2) bad transcriptions due to computer OCR
3) loan-translations -- great fun if you have ancestors who were German, whose town became part of Poland, so they went from having the surname BLACK (in German) to BLACK (in Polish) then came to the USA and had people who didn't know Polish transcribing their name

Some codes like Soundex help with variant vowels but assume the consonants are correct. Other codes deal with sound but can't help with letter confusions (m/n). Maddening, isn't it?

Jan

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