Royal Engineers (WWII)

ganstey · Post by **ganstey** » 07 Jan 2013 14:35

My late father was in the Royal Engineers during WWII. He was part of the 7th Armoured Division (Desert Rats), and I remember him saying that he fought at the 2nd battle of El Alamein, and also the relief of Tobruk, before moving into Sicily and Italy where he was injured and returned to the UK.

Apart from that, I have very little information about his service, in terms of where he was when, and where he was when injured. I have a copy of his military service record, but this does not shed much more light on it. I know he was with the 4th Field Regiment RE, but as they were attached to various fighting regiments and battalions, they don't have their own diaries.

So I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas as to how I might find out more details about his service. I know there is an RE museum in Chatham, but at the moment I am not able to visit there, and they have little information online. I've also tried various tactics at the National Archives, but not come up with anything.

Any ideas would be much appreciated.
Graham

ID:6684

YouTube · Post by **Jane** » 07 Jan 2013 15:28

The museum I can see is http://www.re-museum.co.uk/research/ Royal Engineers Museum, Prince Arthur Road, Gillingham, Kent, ME4 4UG

It might be worth an email to check what resources they have and any suggestions for NA records. When I have contacted various regimental museums I have had mixed responses, but it's worth a try.

I also found the following

http://www.instre.org/pages/publication ... cd-rom.php

Which might be of help.

RSellens · Post by **RSellens** » 07 Jan 2013 18:39

Hi Graham,
I found that when my father got his fathers service record, like you he didn't get any details on his medical history (which was quite a lot due to being injured as part of the BEF, and being evac'd just before Dunkirk). When he re-contacted the people that supplied the service record, they confirmed that it should have contained his medical records as well, and sent them on as a seperate item to us. S its worth getting back in touch and seeing if they can send on the medical details for you.

Richard

ganstey · Post by **ganstey** » 07 Jan 2013 21:45

Yes, Gillingham! Well I knew it was in Kent [grin] I had seen that CD-ROM, but it sounded like it was more a general history rather than something equivalent to unit diaries. I'll contact them and see what they say.

I'll have another check as to exactly what I received from the MoD, and maybe contact them again if I think something might be missing.

Thank you both.

Any other ideas gratefully received. Has anyone else researched anyone in the RE?
Graham

Post by **Valkrider** » 08 Jan 2013 07:58

Graham,

No I haven't but both my father and grandfather were in the RE in WW2 so I look forward to hearing how you get on.

I have just received their military records from the MOD, after waiting 15 months, and like you was disappointed in the lack of detail they contained. Unlike my father in-law's records that I got from the RAF archive, he was a Polish submariner (that's who stores the records!), these were so complete and detailed it was great to receive them.

YouTube · Post by **Jane** » 08 Jan 2013 08:33

If you can get a list of the regiments he was attached to, you should be able to piece together his service using their war diaries.

Also did you see the program on Tankies the other night, it covers one of the Tank regiments at El Alamein and was pretty good, it's still on iPlayer at the moment.

ganstey · Post by **ganstey** » 08 Jan 2013 16:04

Hi Jane,

I haven't been able to get any info on which regiment he was attached to, but I'll keep looking.

I did see Tankies, and thought it was an excellent programme. I also have several books on the North Africa campaign, and what they went through was truly extraordinary. The books are excellent for a lot of detail, but I found that the TV programme gave a very good overview.

Graham

ganstey · Post by **ganstey** » 08 Jan 2013 16:10

Valkrider, do you have the RE units that they were in? The RE museum has WWII unit diaries for some units, but unfortunately not for my father's. There is a link to both their WWI and WWII unit diary lists here: http://www.re-museum.co.uk/research/

Graham

YouTube · Post by **Jane** » 09 Jan 2013 10:57

I had a bit more of a google, and found the following page

http://www.desertrats.org.uk/org.htm

If you search the page for 'Engineers' it tells you where the '4th Field' were engaged in the Western Desert campaign.

Your books might already show you this, but I thought it worth a mention.

ganstey · Post by **ganstey** » 10 Jan 2013 14:01

Many thanks Jane, I'd not seen that before. Looks like it might contain some of the information I'm after.

I've also had a very helpful response from the Institute of Royal Engineers:

We do not hold the Unit War Diaries at the Institution but Volume VIII of the Corps history covers the Campaigns from 1938 to 1948 in France and Belgium 39-40, Norway, the Middle East, East Africa, the Western Desert, North West Africa and Activities in the UK. The book is well referenced and all mentions of both 4 Fd Sqn and 17 Fd Coy are indexed although it does not mention that 17 Fd Coy was in Africa. Volume IX covers Sicily and Italy, along with the war against Japan and the Normandy Invasion et sec.

The books are available in both printed form and as part of the CD you mentioned, which contains Volumes I to XI. Volume XII is only available in printed form at the moment and covers 1980 to 2000.

Unit War Diaries are available through the public records office but are quite difficult to use as you need to know the specific dates you want to look at. The Campaign Summaries may also be available publicly but are keep secret for longer than the diaries as they are not compiled until many years later. It is worth enquiring. The Summaries tell you in detail which units were in which operations and so act as a route map to the diaries.

Maybe I've just found a door in the brick wall [smile]
Graham

ganstey · Post by **ganstey** » 02 Feb 2013 17:02

Just received a copy of this CD. It contains the entire Corps history up to 1980 split into 11 volumes. Each volume comes as a PDF containing scanned pages from the printed version. Some of the scans are a bit wonky, and the typeface looks like it was produced on a mechanical typewriter, but all the text is perfectly readable.

One advantage of having it in PDF form means that you can readily search it.

The descriptions are fairly detailed, especially as the Corps does not have a Regimental or Unit Diary as such. Even just having a quick scan I have learnt new details of exactly what my father might have been doing during certain engagements.

Well worth the £10 + £1 P&P
Graham

YouTube · Post by **Jane** » 03 Feb 2013 11:06

Sounds a useful document, enjoy your research.

gerrynuk · Post by **gerrynuk** » 04 Feb 2013 08:24

ganstey said:
Just received a copy of this CD. It contains the entire Corps history up to 1980 split into 11 volumes. Each volume comes as a PDF containing scanned pages from the printed version. Some of the scans are a bit wonky, and the typeface looks like it was produced on a mechanical typewriter, but all the text is perfectly readable.

One advantage of having it in PDF form means that you can readily search it.

The descriptions are fairly detailed, especially as the Corps does not have a Regimental or Unit Diary as such. Even just having a quick scan I have learnt new details of exactly what my father might have been doing during certain engagements.

Well worth the £10 + £1 P&P
Graham

Graham, my father was in the Royal Engineers in WW2 and I would be interested in purchasing this CD. Could you please tell me if there is any mention of Civil Affairs, particularly in North Africa, Sicily, Naples and the Benelux countries?

Many thanks,

Gerry

ganstey · Post by **ganstey** » 04 Feb 2013 16:36

Hi Gerry,

I'm not sure what you mean by Civil Affairs. Each volume is over 500 pages long, and there are two volumes covering WW2. As an example of the type of coverage given, here is an extract that refers to my father's unit:

Owing to weak strength and mechanical failures the Division could
do little to stop the enemy. Further a threat by German armour to
the supply dump at Msus caused the garrison at that place to destroy
the petrol on which the Division so largely depended for movement.
In consequence Divisional Headquarters with several units, includ-
ing the majority of the R.E., was surrounded at Mechili, on 8th
April, and had to surrender. A few detachments, including No. P
Troop and B echelon of 4th Field Squadron, a detachment of the
Field Park Troop and individuals escaped and eventually with forty
German prisoners joined other British units,

I'm afraid you're going to have to give me something I can search on before I can answer your question.
Graham

gerrynuk · Post by **gerrynuk** » 04 Feb 2013 16:58

ganstey said:
Hi Gerry,

I'm not sure what you mean by Civil Affairs. Each volume is over 500 pages long, and there are two volumes covering WW2. As an example of the type of coverage given, here is an extract that refers to my father's unit:

...

I'm afraid you're going to have to give me something I can search on before I can answer your question.
Graham

Hi Graham,

The Civil Affairs units were the people who went in after the enemy was defeated. They got civilian government restarted to make sure the country didn't decline into chaos. I believe all the units were attached to the RE.

Is it possible to do a word search for 'civil affairs'?

I know my father was in North Africa in 1943 and as the British Army cleared the German army from there and crossed the Med to Sicily and up through Italy my father followed behind them. Sorry I can't be more explicit but I am still researching his military career and hope the CD might give me more background.

Thanks for your patience!

Gerry

Bute01 · Post by **Bute01** » 05 Feb 2013 14:55

My Grandfather was in the Royal Engineers in WWI (One).
Do you know if there was a diary for then, and do you have to get a different CD for certain years? I looked on the website, but couldn't see where I could purchase these.

Thank you

ganstey · Post by **ganstey** » 05 Feb 2013 19:12

Hi Gerry,

There doesn't appear to be anything specific. The only matches are as follows:

MALAYA AND SINGAPORE
We have seen (Chapter X, pages 293,294) that the surrender of the
Japanese forces found formations of Fourteenth Army in occupation
of Singapore and the area of Malaya about Port Swettenham, XV
Corps in the first named island and city, and XXXIV Corps in
Malaya. Each was accompanied by a staff, based on the planning
teams described above (pages 563, 564), to supervise the rehabilita-
tion of the civilian life of the dependencies. This staff at first formed
part of the military administration, and later, as the civil government
began to take over responsibility for civil affairs from the army,
gradually reverted to the civilian status from which most of the
officers were drawn.

Relating to Singapore...

Owing to the necessity of sending a strong force to the Dutch East
Indies, XV Corps, with 5th Indian Division and other troops, was
dispatched to those islands, and a Singapore Command was set up
with Colonel Pearse, now a brigadier, as Chief Engineer (succeeded
later by Brigadier H. S. Anderson'). The staff of the C.E. was
divided into two sections, one under a D.C.E. to take charge of all
work required by the occupational troops, and the other under a
Deputy Director of Civil Affairs (Works), Colonel 0. W. Gilmoura
who had throughout been in charge of the engineer side of the
Planning team, and who had been formerly Deputy Chief Municipal
Engineer in Singapore and escaped just before the city fell in 1942.

There may be more information if you read around these sections. If not referenced directly, it should give you an idea as to what was happening at the time.

I think it would be worth you getting a copy of the CD so that you can read the context, and get more background information. I don't want to post any more than I already have done, as it is a copyrighted work.

Hope this helps.
Graham

ganstey · Post by **ganstey** » 05 Feb 2013 19:20

Hi Bute01,

The CD covers 1860 to 1980. The first volume also apparently covers some key dates pre-1860. I believe there is a further volume covering 1980-2000 either available or in preparation in print form.

WWI (1914-1919) is covered by volumes V and VI. In my experience more information from WWI is in the public domain than for WWII, so it is likely that the descriptions are fairly detailed.

Copies of the CD can be ordered over the phone (payment by credit/debit card) on 01634 822035 09:30 - 12:30.

Bute01 · Post by **Bute01** » 05 Feb 2013 19:30

Hi Graham

Thanks for the info.
I have the transcript of my grandfathers war diary from 18th August 1914 - 13th February 1915, when he returned to UK sick.
I have been unable for find anything else of his war record. In WWII he was a Major in the Home Guard.

gerrynuk · Post by **gerrynuk** » 05 Feb 2013 19:53

Graham,

I am very grateful. Thanks very much. Yes, I think I will buy the CD as it will provide a broader picture of the RE's activities.

Gerry

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