* Dead End help please or opinions......

[argus]

.

Bit new to this, but so far it’s fascinating. I'm researching an individual... (Actually, my 3x Gt Uncle) and I know the main life events up to his death, no problems there but I cannot find details of his death certificate.
He was a mariner, but he didn’t jump into a kyak one night and do a bunk, never to be seen again.

I'm certain that he died because I have details of a will and probate granted to his widow and sole executrix. I know when he died (June 1897) and where he died (Portsmouth) from his will.

HOWEVER…. Being curious about his cause of death, I cannot find a record of his death with the page references to check the death certificate in the usual BMD. I know these are not perfect… but, he’s not there.

Has anybody any ideas where to research next?

.


ID:3016

[steveabye]

What is his name ?

[gerrynuk]

FreeBMD reports 100% coverage of deaths for 1897 so he must be there somewhere. Sometimes names are added in manuscript to the bottom of the page and can be missed. Also, if the death was near the end of a quarter it might be in the following quarter.

Good luck,

Gerry

[argus]

The name in question is Mark Hawkins. He was a merchant mariner from West Sussex, sailing from and living in Portsmouth.

The only Mark Hawkins listed in BMD in the entire decade is one who died in Luton in Q 3 of 1897. He was a labourer and it's not him. There are no added names on that page.

As I said, I know who he is, where he lived, exactly when he died, how much he left in his will (which was proved), but I can't find him listed to obtain his Death cert.


.

[NickWalker]

There are a huge number of errors in the BMD indexes as books by Michael Whitfield Foster show: see my comments in the following forum thread for details: Re: Question re Ancestry FreeBMD Marriage Index.

You should be able to get the death certificate from the local register office. This link might help: Portsmouth: Copy certificates - Birth, Death and Marriage

[margarita]

Do you know how old he was when he died?

maggie

[jmurphy]

Do you have access to local newspapers? A search for his obituary might list a cause of death or help you narrow down the death date.

For the BMD records, try searching for his first name only in case the surname is misspelled in the index.

Jan

[Jane]

As Nick says, try the Portsmouth Registry office, they have different indexes so may be able to find the entry. Deaths are generally easier for the local offices than marriages which are stored by church.

[argus]

.

Many thanks for the replies so far – it’s much appreciated.

To answer in turn:

Maggie: Yes I do know his approximate age. He was born about 1837 (at least christened then) so he would have been about 60 years old when he died.

Jan: Yes I do have the exact date of death from his will – 17 June 1837. I did also check first names entry in the BMD – no joy there, I’m afraid.

Finally and not least, Nick and Jane: I did not know that you could search or obtain death certificates from the locality where it occurred. I shall certainly try in Portsmouth next.
I would have expected an error margin in the GRO indexes given the levels of handwriting transcription involved, but your posts, Nick, are an eye-opener. Thankfully, I have encountered only two brickwalls so far; this and another in Yorkshire where I can find no trace of my grandparent’s marriage.
But it wouldn’t be as much fun if it were easy …. Or would it?

Many thanks to all.
Next stop, Pompey Registry Office.


.

[margarita]

I have found an article in the
Hampshire Telegraph and Sussex Chronicle dated Saturday, July 31, 1897.

Unfortunately I don't know how to get it to you.

I found the article in the British Library 19th Century British Library Newspapers collection through a free trial at Gale Digital Collections.
If someone can tell me how, then I will send it to you.

He was assumed lost at sea.

Regards,

Margarita

[argus]

.

Margarita, I think that you may have stumbled upon it.

I'm in the process of going through the Gale Digital Collection - just signed up as your mail came in - and working out how to search it.

The reason why I think that it is right is that there is a family story of a collision at sea, sometime about the date of the Diamond Jubilee Spithead review, in 1897. I never have it much credance previously, but this relative is giving me a lot to work on.

Perhaps you could post the reference, but I'll search that paper now.

Many thanks for your help.

best regards

[margarita]

argus,

This is how I found it:

Log into Gale Digital Collection Main page

Click on 19th Century British Library Newspapers

Put Mark Hawkins in Search box

Click on 'After' radio button

Enter date 1897 July 29

click Search

The first result is titled          FIFTY PER CENT. PROFIT click that and scroll down the page until you come to

'Missing Portsmouth Brig'

& Mark's you man as they say (well almost)

If it doesn't work, please let me know.

Regards,

maggie


P.S. It's a very sad story - but then I suppose there were many such amongst mariners.

[argus]

.

Margarita,

I went back through an advanced search and found him by searching the name.

As you say, very sad. My 2 x Gt grandfather was his brother, another mariner, based in Cardiff. So there was a grain of truth in the family myth after all.

This would explain why there is no death certificate on record because, we presume, there was no body recovered. I must check if there was a board of trade inquiry into the loss of the vessel.

However, this information now gets me into searching the crew lists in Portsmouth which are partially transcribed by vessel name, but a full retrospective search should now be possible because I have the name of his final vessel.

Thank you to all who provided hints and help.

.

[jmurphy]

argus said:
This would explain why there is no death certificate on record because, we presume, there was no body recovered. I must check if there was a board of trade inquiry into the loss of the vessel.

Might there be an official record of some kind, which is designed to substitute for the ordinary death certificate if one is needed?

The record offices in coastal areas might be able to advise you if 'substitute' certificates are available now for mariners lost at sea, and if so, at what point in time the procedure for issuing them came into being.

A search for 'presumption of death order' or 'presumption of death decree' along with the name of the missing vessel might yield results.

Jan

[argus]

.

Jan, Yes indeed there must have been sufficient official records to satisfy the grant of probate.

The Board of Trade automatically took over in the cases of losses at sea.

More work to be done.....

.

[jmurphy]

From the website of the Crew List Index Project:
http://www.crewlist.org.uk/index.html

(subpage is Finding Seafarers from Indexes -- same link as above, but substitute
findingonindexes.html for 'index.html'

The most likely candidate for the register you need is

   * Registers and indexes of births, marriages and deaths of passengers and seamen at sea, from 1890 (BT 334);

For the Series details for BT 334, The National Archives says:

Scope and content      
This series contains registers and indexes of births, deaths and marriages at sea maintained by the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen. For the period 1910-1918 there are also registers recording events specifically reported to one of the national Registrars General of births and deaths.
The registers include both UK and foreign subjects, passengers and seamen. There is only one register for marriages. The registers contain some entries related to the deaths of seamen ashore.
The death registers include entries for the SS Titanic and Lusitania.

Hope this helps.

Jan