* Welsh place names

[AdrianBruce]

I have just spent the best part of a couple of hours trying to work out how to represent a Welsh parish name. Previously, I've only ever had to deal with fairly standard places like Llandudno and Wrexham. This one is an 1812 reference to the parish of what is now Llanfair Kilgeddin in Monmouthshire (whatever that means these days!). When I try to look for the contemporary spelling, I find

• the 1894 revision to the 1 inch OS map has Llanvair Kilgidin;
• the 1899 revision to the 6 inch OS map has Llanvair Kilgedin;
• the current OS map has Llanfair Kilgeddin;
• the Gwent Archives web-pages have Llanfair Kilgedin.

And to confuse matters Wikipedia has "Llanfair Kilgeddin (Welsh: Llanfair Cilgedin)".

I have settled on Llanfair Kilgedin (rather than the current OS map's version) because if anyone were to attempt to use my source record to find the originals in Gwent Archives, it would seem sensible to match their spelling. As for matching the contemporary spelling, that would mean using "Llanvair" which even I, as an Englishman, find a horrible spelling.

Does anyone have any sensible advice about how to decide what spellings to use to represent Welsh names?

[tatewise]

This is slightly at a tangent but both a Google Search and Google Maps when given your proposed Llanfair Kilgedin easily found Llanvair Kilgeddin which is its modern spelling.

Wikipedia has it as Llanfair Kilgeddin Welsh: Llanfair Cilgedin

[Gowermick]

Adrian,
What you may have forgotten, regardless of spelling, FH, (after geocoding), will also have the Lat/Lon of each place. so, anyone reading your research in the future will know where you meant, even if your spelling is slightly wrong.
I’ve lived here for over 20 years, and I’m still bemused over some of the spellings I see used in old censuses

[gwilym'smum]

Adrain,
I would definitely use f as it is just English people who hear f pronounced as v that they spell it with v.
Ann

[Gowermick]

Ann,
In welsh, f is pronounced as v ; dd as th and ai as i (as in ire). so the name Llanfair Kilgeddin is pronounced Llanvire Kilgethin? Ll is difficult to describe in Englsh, but nearest approximation is hl.

I may not speak nor understand Welsh, but know enough to avoid upsetting locals with poor pronunciation of placenames ( most of the time ), but still manage to upset them occasionally

[ColeValleyGirl]

If you want to record the place name in Welsh, it's definitely f and not v as there is no letter v in Welsh. And c not k for the same reason...

But of course, you may want to use English equivalents -- depends if you're recording a standardised modern place or the historical spelling. Have you yet had to make a decision between Fishguard and Abergwaun? Both of which are modern spelling...

As @Gowermick says, the Lat/Long and standardised place name are essential -- how else are people reading my research going to know that Llanfair Nant Y Gof in historical documents became modern Trecwn in the 1930s/40s when they built the Royal Naval arms depot on top of Trecwn Mill (where my ancestors lived).

For your example place, Genuki has Llanfair Cilgedin / Llanfair Kilgeddin and then uses either or both indiscriminately (probably depending on what the material they're referencing uses). It doesn't show up in the Dictionary of the Place Names of Wales and I can't find it at https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/ which surprises me. https://places.library.wales/ has it as Llanfair Kilgeddin

[Gowermick]

Even English spellings of Welsh towns seems to vary, even for somewhere as simple as Swansea, with only two syllables!

I just read an article that stated that apparently, Swansea has suffered various spellings over time, like Swansey and Swanzey, until finally settling on Swansea!

That said, is it really so surprising that the more complicated names varied so much?

[AdrianBruce]

Thanks for your comments. I suspect that, as Mike L implies, I may be over-thinking this, especially given the oddities of even current names down there.

Some background: (1) I subscribe very much to the view that I should use the contemporary name. Thus an event in Munich in 1861 happened in the country of Bavaria, not in Germany. However, that idea doesn't help with which language I should use, i.e. is it Bavaria or Bayern? (And if I have both an English language source and a German???)

(2) Over the years I have spent many holidays in North Wales and have seen the "Welshification"(?) of the place-names proceed quite thoroughly. No-one these days, for instance uses Carnarvon, but "always" Caernarfon. And while that might be a priority case, it's similar for Porthmadog, Tywyn, Dolgellau, etc. So to find that the current OS Map (which I tend to regard as the gold standard for accepted place-names) using Llanfair Kilgeddin, when my understanding is that (as Helen says) there is no "K" in the Welsh alphabet is disorienting. And that meant I also had no idea whether the "dd" was English (as in "ladder") or Welsh (as in a voiced "th", e.g. "then"). If Wikipedia is correct, then it's an English "dd" (though I've no idea why it's not "d").

I can only assume that, perhaps with the area being Monmouthshire, "Welshification" of place-names has not proceeded as fast down there.

As is said above, the map searches seem to find the place if I enter Llanfair Kilgeddin, and that has geocoded directly, so I'll stick to that, particularly since Gwent Archives use that spelling. Other variants look close enough to be recognisable, I believe.

Helen - I couldn't find Llanfair Kilgeddin in the RCAHMW lists either, which made me somewhat grumpy - especially since it's there on the maps! I also discovered something really annoying: if a place is in their database as "A hyphen B", then a search for "A space B" will not find it. Seriously?

[ColeValleyGirl]

Helen - I couldn't find Llanfair Kilgeddin in the RCAHMW lists either, which made me somewhat grumpy - especially since it's there on the maps! I also discovered something really annoying: if a place is in their database as "A hyphen B", then a search for "A space B" will not find it. Seriously?

A database designed by historians and not IT folk...

I subscribe very much to the view that I should use the contemporary name

As do I, and I also make a rule to use the name as given in the relevant source document (ducking the decision of which language to use in Wales). I may end up with multiple place names all pointing to the same standardised place, but I find that manageable.

[Gowermick]

(2) Over the years I have spent many holidays in North Wales and have seen the "Welshification"(?) of the place-names proceed quite thoroughly. No-one these days, for instance uses Carnarvon, but "always" Caernarfon.

Adrian,
North Wales should not be regarded as representing all Welsh atittudes, as it seems to be more actively Welsh than the rest of Wales. It was there during the '60s that the feeling ran so high they were burning holiday cottages.
Down here, with a more liberal outlook, you rarely hear Welsh spoken, so it is still Canarvon

[ColeValleyGirl]

North Wales should not be regarded as representing all Welsh atittudes, as it seems to be more actively Welsh than the rest of Wales.

I've not spotted a lot of difference between Sir Caernafon and Sir Benfro (north of the Landsker).

[Gowermick]

I've not spotted a lot of difference between Sir Caernafon and Sir Benfro (north of the Landsker)

Eh, I don’t understand the last comment. Is that the welsh equivalent of north of Watford

Ah, just googled it! I must admit I’d never heard the term, although I knew pembroke to be little england