Family Historian User Group

Is there any way to link marriages of two people without applying for copies of the certificates? Just going on a hunch can start to prove expensive.

I am looking for a possible marriage of BOOT and SAW sometime between 1900 and 1910, probably in UXBRIDGE. We do not know which surname related to the husband/wife as a child was born out of wedlock so may have had either name

Searches bring up:

Sept '03
Caroline Elizabeth SAW
Walter BOOT

June '08
George Arthur SAW
Sarah Ann G BOOT

They could be marriage pairs or it could just be co-incidence that there was a SAW and a BOOT married in the same quarter. Or they may not have finally married.

Hang on - what do you actually know? You say, "a child was born out of wedlock so may have had either name" - well, it would be highly unusual to have the father's name, actually, but leaving that aside - have you found the child in the 1911? How do you know the names are BOOT and SAW?

You may be looking at the correct names, but we certainly don't have enough to go on to advise....

I echo Adrian's comments.
I have searched FindMyPast for any Marriage records from 1895 to 1915 between surname Boot and surname Saw without any matches either way round, unless I allow surname variants and then get names such as Booth and Shaw included.

Where did you find the searches that you listed?

Another possibility is to find them in the 1911 Census records.

There are 4 records for Caroline Elizabeth SAW in Uxbridge/Reading (and 11 for Caroline SAW):
Born Q1 1878 in Uxbridge, married Q3 1903 to one of JAMES DAREY, JAMES D'ARCY, FREDERICK JOSEPH CLARKE.
Born Q1 1856 in Reading, baptised 04 May 1856 in Reading.

There are 3 records for Walter BOOT in Uxbridge (and 2 for Walter Nelson BOOT b.1905 m.1933):
Born Q3 1881, married Q3 1903 to one of MINNIE ROSETTA HOLLOWAY, ANNIE LOUISA RIDER, died Q3 1962.

There are 2 records for George Arthur SAW (and lots for George SAW but none relevant in Uxbridge):
Born Q2 1885 in Brentford, married Q2 1908 in Uxbridge to one of ELIZABETH AMELIA GILDER, ADELAIDE DAISY DUNSTER.

There are 2 records for Sarah Ann G BOOT (and hundreds for Sarah BOOT):
Born Q2 1889 in Hendon, married in Q2 1908 to one of THOMAS EVANS, JOHN THOMAS WRIGHT.

Sorry that none of those help much.

I have almost NOTHING to go on!

I am about to apply for a birth certificate which "may" give some further insight however the person that is causing a blockage could have been either a foundling or adopted - family heresay, he was born in 1902. And there is also rumour that he may have been the son of a young girl working as a servant for a wealthy family! There is no documentation in the family covering his upbringing except he was a living as a "nephew" with a large family in the 1911 census at age 9.

Family heresay has also suggested that his third Forename, BOOT, was that of his father whilst his mother was SAW, however his marriage certificate gives his father's name as SAW, which again has been suggested might not be the case!

Yes, the foundling/adopted heresay does (may) not work if he was named after BOOT & SAW ... and again, born out of wedlock (which we think is the most likely), taking the mother's name does not sit with the marriage cert.

Thanks Tatewise - your post seems to have confirmed there was no marriage at that time. The four records I pulled off were from the FreeBMD website looking for weddings with those name which took place in the same quarter.

edit to add: I have since found that on FreeBMD clicking the "Page" will show potential links similar to those you have provided


As you can probably guess, I am a real amateur when it comes to this with limited experience although trying to build my knowledge however slightly constrained by a lack of finances.

Other parts of the family have been fairly easy in comparison , just one arm which is presentling problems.

And thanks again for the advice and replies.

You need to start with what you know and work back. Do every single step - don't look for a marriage of the parents without having shown they are the parents (via a baptism or birth certificate) first.

You appear to have him in the 1911 census, described as a nephew.

Step 1 therefore seems to me to be get his birth certificate. Start by looking under the name he has in the 1911 census. If you can't find it under that name, try the others. You should also look for any baptism as an independent source of data. Ignore all the stories, rumours and heresay until you're quite clear that you're going nowhere with the normal explanations.

If you're not sure whether an index entry for a BC is your guy, have a look to see if the person with that name, age and area of birth is in the 1911 - or indeed, if they have died before then. It is, as I think you realise, likely to require splashing the cash at some point.

If / when you have the BC / baptism, how does that compare to his later marriage certificate?

Step 2 is to understand the 1911 family. Gut feeling is that he is unlikely to be described as a nephew if he is not related. Start by supposing "nephew" to be correct. Are there any siblings of the head of that household (or their spouse), who are not in that household in the 1911 census, who could be his parent? (Yes, I do mean you've got to go back in history with that family as well).

Does the results of step 2 link up in any way with the results from step 1?

The 1939 Register may help with his birth date, by the way.

To be quite honest, there is every likelihood that he will turn out to be illegitimate, given the stories, but you need to show this first. In which case, there's every chance that the father on the marriage certificate is a convenient story. Or even a real person - just not the father. (I have a case like that - the real person has a full family baptised in the 1820s, with no space for my GG GF who alleged he was his father. I suspect the real person may have taken him in, but that's a guess and probably will remain so).

Don't panic; one step at a time and good luck....

Isn't this a continuation of the Adoption? (13220) thread?

In which case the first step is to get the Full Birth Certificate of your grandfather.

Otherwise you are probably barking up the wrong family tree!!!!!

Don't waste money on anything else.

tatewise wrote:Isn't this a continuation of the Adoption? (13220) thread?

Yes and no ... I have had "verbal" confirmation that he was not adopted (no proof either way) and apparently he had a sister living maybe 10 miles away.

It is the parents of the person referred to that I used as an example and what I hoped might be easier. However, the original question was generic about finding partners in a marriage - tackling one on my wife's side has SMITH marrying SMITH.

It moved across to the subject, when a couple of questions wee asked.


AdrianBruce,

Thanks for your comments.

We are waiting for a full birth certificate - no one who has a copy of the short one knows why they only have that and not a full one.

I spent a couple of days a few weeks back looking at census records trying to understand certain parts of the family - including this one. I have gone back from the Husband and Wife he lived with. The wife's side does not throw up any possibilities and information on the Husbands side is sparse and from what I found, no possible links. The wife actually fell out with her parents and siblings and teh two sides had nothing to do with each other.

As you say, wait for teh BC and see what happens.

Short Birth Certificates:

The answer to why a family might only have 'Short' Birth Certificates is relatively easy to answer/understand. When my daughter was born and I reported the Birth, I was given the choice of either purchasing a copy of the 'Full' Birth Certificate or a 'Short Form' Certificate. Can't remember the precise costs, but the difference was significant at the time so, given that parent(s) reporting births already knew all of the key details they were reporting (and most would not have been genealogists!), many people with limited funds would naturally have chosen the cheapest option as they were already facing considerable cost, with another mouth to feed, and were quite possibly also facing losing some of their regular family income if the mother had previously been working.

Mervyn

Short Birth Certificates:

Yes indeed, back in the late 1970s early 1980s I only got short birth certificates for my three children. I had no interest in family history back then, and saw no reason to pay the additional cost for full certificates. I still only have images of those short certificates in my FH Project media folder.

I suppose that one day I ought to splash out the £30 or so to get the full ones, just in case my tree is still in use by some descendants in a few generations time, although at the moment none of them show much interest in it

An update ...

Finally have a copy of the BC - mother is given as Jane SAW, Domestic Servant; however both father and his occupation are blank. The mother's address is potentially close to where my Grandfather was raised.

Some initial searches, which will need a little more confirmation show three Jane Saws born in the 40 years before my Grandfather, one in the same town and two 20 miles away. Just one marriage, again 20 miles away. Then a death in the "home town" at an age corresponding to the birth there. Potentially one census entry in 1901 for one of the right age.


So, should I concentrate my efforts on the one who was born locally? to see what I can find? Then either rule her in/out?

Given the limited information you have about the mother, the next steps would normally be to identify the possible individuals (which you've already done), and then try to begin to narrow down the possibles, until you only have one left:

a) As the child was born in 1902, were any of the possible mothers listed as servants in the 1901 census?

b) Try to locate a baptism for the child, which might provide some additional information.

c) Relationship descriptions historically were not always as we expect today, e.g. in some cases 'nephew' might have been used loosely to describe a more distant child relative (including younger cousins, grand-children and step-children), but would not usually be used to describe a child who wasn't directly related in any way. So, try to explore the family the child was living with in 1911. See if the SAW surname appears in any of their backgrounds - What was the wife of the Head of the Household's Maiden Name? What were their parent's names? Did any of their brothers/sisters/uncle's/aunt's marry someone named SAW? These facts should (hopefully) be discoverable with the creative use of earlier Census Returns/GRO Indexes/Parish Registers. 'Worst case scenario' from the tracing point of view: Some unidentified male member of the wider family had a relationship with a "Miss Saw" and the family felt a duty to take in and raise the resulting child.

Mervyn

If the death of a Jane Saw occurred in the same town at a similar time to the birth I think I would risk my money on that death cert to see what it contains. Hopefully a useful informant and an address. Was there any useful info like that on the birth cert?
Anne

Thanks for the replies.

mjashby wrote:Given the limited information you have about the mother, the next steps would normally be to identify the possible individuals (which you've already done), and then try to begin to narrow down the possibles, until you only have one left:

a) As the child was born in 1902, were any of the possible mothers listed as servants in the 1901 census?

b) Try to locate a baptism for the child, which might provide some additional information.

c) Relationship descriptions historically were not always as we expect today, e.g. in some cases 'nephew' might have been used loosely to describe a more distant child relative (including younger cousins, grand-children and step-children), but would not usually be used to describe a child who wasn't directly related in any way. So, try to explore the family the child was living with in 1911. See if the SAW surname appears in any of their backgrounds - What was the wife of the Head of the Household's Maiden Name? What were their parent's names? Did any of their brothers/sisters/uncle's/aunt's marry someone named SAW? These facts should (hopefully) be discoverable with the creative use of earlier Census Returns/GRO Indexes/Parish Registers. 'Worst case scenario' from the tracing point of view: Some unidentified male member of the wider family had a relationship with a "Miss Saw" and the family felt a duty to take in and raise the resulting child.

Mervyn

In answer:

a) None were listed as servants in 1901.

b) Nothing so far on baptisms - a way to go on that although possibly unlikely.

c) The family that the child, my Grandfather, was living with, was that of my Grandmother and as far as I can find there are no SAWs in that line. I agree, Nephew could be a very loose term and may just be there to "make it easier". I have been able to find the possible parents of the mother and her siblings.

The next is supposition - no real grounding but some looking around the sidelines and may merit some investigation.

I know where the Saw family lived in 1891 and 1901 and I believe it is not far from where the mother was a General Servant - Domestic in 1902 when the birth occurred. And not far from where the family my Grandfather lived with, resided.

My Grandfather had a third forename BOOT - which is more of a surname. There was a Boot family living close-by and one of the sons of a similar age to Jane was named Harry. The name of the Grooms father on my Grandparent's marriage certificate is shown as Harry Saw.

OR: Jane Saw has an older brother - his two forenames are exactly the same as my Grandfather. Was he named after him? or something more sinister!

Just a thought or two !

AnneEast wrote:If the death of a Jane Saw occurred in the same town at a similar time to the birth I think I would risk my money on that death cert to see what it contains. Hopefully a useful informant and an address. Was there any useful info like that on the birth cert?
Anne

Jane Saw - b. Q2 1882 d. Q2 1931 age 48 which ties in. My grandfather b. 1902 which would put her at 20 yo. 1901 census has her living at home, at time of birth working as servant close-by and then 1911 as a servant just a few miles away.

Ah, sorry, I thought you said the death was at the time of the birth, ie it was possible the mother had dues in childbirth. Still, it looks a promosing one to follow up with all the other details.
Anne

Talking with my elderly Uncle last night. At the beginning of the thread I mentioned looking for a marriage and it does seem as though I was going in the wrong direction - partially. He does remember there being a "Caroline" mentioned at some time in the very distant past which had me looking for a Caroline Saw whom I found. Looking at Jane's siblings, there is certainly a Caroline there and a few other dates tie up! Maybe not a red herring just a light pink one ...

The whole jigsaw has now fallen into place ...

I have found that both Caroline and Jane were sisters and both had illegitimate children - they were two of 11 siblings and unfortunately 6 died before they were 2yo.

Focussing on the one Jane Saw, I believed I had located her parents ... who had 11 children in total unfortunately only 5 survived past 2yo. Of those, Jane and Caroline had illegitimate children.

Then through Ancestry.com I located someone with a Jane Saw in her private tree. She had been looking for Caroline's lineage and was able to provide confirmation of the parents and maternal Grandparents of Jane. Then a revelation - she mentioned the witnesses to Jane's parents wedding - a name I knew from my maternal Grandparent line, and was the paternal Grandmother of my Grandmother, or my Gt Gt Grandmother once I had confirmed DoB and maiden names.

Then going back another generation we found that my Grandfather's maternal Grandmother and my Grandmother's paternal Grandmother were actually sisters!

It appears that when Jane moved away to work as a servant she left her son, my Grandfather, in the care of her cousin and his wife - hence the reference to "Nephew" even though he was actually a first-cousin once removed. My Grandfather and Grandmother were actually second cousins.

So, a lot of the family heresay about adoption, foundling &c is untrue.


The next hurdle and I doubt if I can find anything is the forename Boot - why. As I mentioned census returns do show a Boot family in an adjoining house and another very close. A little more detail shows one of the sons would have been three years older than Jane and his forenames are exactly the same as my Grandfather ... Will we ever know? Probably not!


And thanks again to those who commented earlier, made suggestions and kicked me in the right direction.

Well done. Its great when it all falls into place!
Anne

AnneEast wrote:Well done. Its great when it all falls into place!
Anne

I now appear twice on my own family tree!

My grandparent's three surviving children were a little "shocked" to hear what I had found ... although they are getting used to these revelations - a previous one was that one of their aunts had 18 living children!

And following on from that success, I have now found a confirmed link to another family tree which goes back another 8 generations to around 1600 plus I was pointed to the father of an old friend who has a family tree that will link in to mine and sit to one side!