* birth in India

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tel1749
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birth in India

Post by tel1749 »

Hi

I have found on my mothers side of the family that her g /father was born in India try as I might cannot get to see the birth records,

I did ask at the NEC event (wdytya) going to family's in India stand, What they found was that the father had died by suicide, I found that in the 1871 census he was back in the UK living in a orphanage, his name John Grimshaw, as was his Father's, by 1893 he was married,

I have found a female death in same year of birth 1861 so suspect that could have been his mother's died during child birth, but no evidence to prove it.

Where do I go to find the birth record of John Grimshaw born in India, ?

Thanks in advance
Tel1749
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tatewise
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Re: birth in India

Post by tatewise »

I suggest you gather as much information as possible from other sources first.
e.g.
Every Census 1871, 1881, 1891, 1901, 1911
Marriage Certificate
Death Certificate
These should give details of full Name and Age and perhaps Date of Birth and Place of Birth, plus relatives such as siblings, father & mother.

Assuming he was a British national his Birth should be recorded in one of the following:
British India Office Births & Baptisms
British Nationals Born Overseas 1818-2005
British Nationals Armed Forces Births 1761-2005

But if it turns out he was not actually born in India it might be in:
Births At Sea, 1854-1960
England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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mjashby
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Re: birth in India

Post by mjashby »

Tel1749,

Have you tried the FIBIS website - http://www.fibis.org

Scroll down the page and select the database - Select 'Advanced Search' enter John Grimshaw and you will find links to the following entries (not sure if they all relate to the same/right person):

Surname GRIMSHAW
First Name John
Year Born 1860
Place Born India
Census Area Hampshire

Presidency of Marriage BENGAL
Marriage Year 1884
Husband First Names John
Husband Surname Grimshaw
Wife First Names Mary Frances
Wife Surname Johnson

Applications for Cadetships in the EIC Armies
Surname Grimshaw
Forename(s) John
IOR Ref: L/MIL/9/119
Folio No. 285-92
Season(s) 1809-10
LDS Film No. 1951711

Mervyn
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LornaCraig
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Re: birth in India

Post by LornaCraig »

That marriage in 1884 to Mary Frances Johnson is probably a different John Grimshaw, as his (calculated) date of birth was 1854 and his father's name was James. See https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGN1-NST

I expect you have found your John Grimshaw in 1881 as a 21 year old bootmaker in Farnborough.

There are a few other records of 'John Grimshaw' in India on familysearch.org, but none that look like the right dates.
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tel1749
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Re: birth in India

Post by tel1749 »

Hi Mervyn & Lorna

Thanks you for replies & interest in my search, yes I been to fibis when at the who do you think you are NEC this year it was them that found John's father was also called John & he committed suicide.

I been through all census relating to the years from his birth starting with 1871 to 1911 , your right he was a boot maker also in census a shoe maker, repairer.

In 1893 he married Ann Maria Frances Ryder , I have the copy of certificate & it shows his father as a soldier, I think he did not want it known his father committed suicide.

By 1911 they had 5 children one of them is a direct line to me Lillian May Grimshaw , Married Robert Bert French my g father on mothers side of family,( I cannot find his birth details either).

I will look at the Indian links you indicated tomorrow, if I am not out.
regards
Tel1749
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AnneEast
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Re: birth in India

Post by AnneEast »

I would think that it was true his father was a soldier. That was most likely the reason he was in India. Hopefully you will be able to find Army records for him. Might be worth considering East India Company records too.
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mjashby
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Re: birth in India

Post by mjashby »

Tel1749,

One or two additional thoughts after doing a bit of 'Googling'

May be worth contacting Hampshire Records Office (Archives) to see if there are any historic records for the Orphanage (Alexandra Rd Orphanage Farnborough/Aldershot) which is now closed - Building demolished in 2010. The Military Museum at Aldershot may also be able to provide some guidance on avenues of research.

It appears from one-or-two old messages on Rootsweb that it was a Catholic Orphanage still run by nuns in the mid 20th century - http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 1017385891

Also see - http://www.historicfarnborough.co.uk/na ... shome.html

Seems a little strange that a 21 year-old working man is described as an 'orphan' on the 1881 Census. Are you totally convinced that this wasn't an Enumerator error? i.e. He would have completed his apprenticeship at 21 and may have been a resident worker making boots for the 'orphans' at the time of the census. Edit: Now found him in 1871 Census, similarly described as an orphan, but at North Lane, Aldershot so any doubts dealt with. Question: Could/Would the Army have arranged his transport back from India when he was orphaned or might it have been a Catholic Mission given that he apparently ended up in a Franciscan Orphanage?

Mervyn
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tel1749
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Re: birth in India

Post by tel1749 »

HI Mervyn thanks again for reply

Yes I am convinced he was a orphan , as I had been told by fibis that his father had committed suicide, my thoughts are that he was sent back to the uk by the army, I not looked at the orphanage being run by the catholic church. being in the Aldershot area where his father was born ? or just sent back close to the army barracks?
Will try get to the area one day, as my mother was also born in Aldershot as was my second eldest brother.
Lots more research to be done but it all takes time,
I will join fibis as they have people who can do research.
Regards
Tel1749
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jmurphy
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Re: birth in India

Post by jmurphy »

tel1749 wrote:In 1893 he married Ann Maria Frances Ryder , I have the copy of certificate & it shows his father as a soldier, I think he did not want it known his father committed suicide.
Do any of the census records say where in India your John Grimshaw was born? There are some parish registers and civil registrations on Find My Past; I've found the children of British Service Members in those collections.

The collections I've had hits on are:
  • Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bombay, 1709-1948
  • GRO Regimental Birth Indices Supplement (1761 to 1924)
Whether you can find a parish register or not might depend on what records survive, but try the GRO Regimental indices and see if you can find any hits.
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tatewise
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Re: birth in India

Post by tatewise »

I have found the 1871 to 1911 Census records and Death in 1924 for John Grimshaw junior on Find My Past that confirm your findings.

I have found John Grimshaw senior's death on Find My Past in British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns - Deaths & Burials Transcription:
John Grimshaw Private 33rd Regiment, Birth: 1830, Death: 02 Sep 1867, Age: 37, Burial: 03 Sep 1867,
Place: Karachi, Presidency: Bombay, Cause: Suicide under temporary insanity

I have found the possible mother's death on Find My Past in British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns - Deaths & Burials Transcription:
Ellen Grimshaw wife of Private Grimshaw 97th Regiment, Birth: 1831, Death: 18 May 1861, Age: 30, Burial: 19 May 1861,
Place: Jubbulpore, Presidency: Bengal, no Cause given
also
Elizabeth Grimshaw child of Private Grimshaw 97th Regiment, Birth: 1856, Death: 25 Jun 1861, Age: 5, Burial: 25 Jun 1861,
Place: Jubbulpore, Presidency: Bengal, no Cause given

I have found only one John Grimshaw on Find My Past in 1861 Worldwide Army Index Transcription:
John Grimshaw, Service No: 160, Rank: Private, Regiment: 97th Foot (Earl of Ulster''s), Stationed: Jubbulpore East Indies, Year: 1861,
National Archives reference: WO12 / 9708

So unless there is some connection between 33rd and 97th Regiments it is unlikely that Ellen & Elizabeth are related to your John Grimshaw.

However, there may be 33rd Regimental records.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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mjashby
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Re: birth in India

Post by mjashby »

Mike,

Well done. I didn't have time to trawl through the FindMyPast records but have followed through your leads and can add a little more from Ancestry:

John Grimshaw in the "Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900":
Indexed:
Name: John Grimshaw
Age: 27
Birth Date: abt 1830
Birth Place: Blackburn, Lancaster
Military Date: 19 Oct 1857
Unit: 97th Foot Soldiers

My Transcription of the relevant entry (Have kept a copy of the original in case):

[Regt. No.:] 160 [Name:] John Grimshaw [Age at Enlistment:] 27 [Date of Enlistment:] 19 Oct 1857 [Place of Birth:] Blackburn Lancaster [Service Details:] Transferred 2 July 67 Sheffield [Remarks:] To 33 Foot

Mervyn
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tatewise
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Re: birth in India

Post by tatewise »

So it does look like the two John Grimshaw's are the same soldier, but still no trace of his son's birth details.

However, it suggests he is in Jubbulpore in 1861, in Sheffield in July 1867, and in Karachi in September 1867!
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: birth in India

Post by doodlebug2256 »

tel1749 wrote: 06 Jun 2015 12:26 Hi

I have found on my mothers side of the family that her g /father was born in India try as I might cannot get to see the birth records,

I did ask at the NEC event (wdytya) going to family's in India stand, What they found was that the father had died by suicide, I found that in the 1871 census he was back in the UK living in a orphanage, his name John Grimshaw, as was his Father's, by 1893 he was married,

I have found a female death in same year of birth 1861 so suspect that could have been his mother's died during child birth, but no evidence to prove it.

Where do I go to find the birth record of John Grimshaw born in India, ?

Thanks in advance
Tel1749
I have only just discovered this post after many years of trying to find out more about the same John Grimshaw, my husbands great grandfather. Lilian’s sister, Florence Winifred is my husband’s late grandmother (I have photographs of her on my Ancestry tree). By purchasing John’s marriage certificate to Ann Maria Frances I also discovered his father was a soldier and deceased. My research had given me the same as you however thanks to this post I have now discovered the sad fate of John Grimshaw senior, so thank you to all contributors.
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E Wilcock
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Re: birth in India

Post by E Wilcock »

My husband's grand mother was born in Poona India. Her father was in the army and forces records may be different. But I seem to remember going to the India Office library (housed in the British Library) where there was a card index.
Those were pre digital days. We now have her birth certificate and baptism certificate but I believe we inherited those via the family.
The India Office library website (which I have just looked at) mentions many of their records being available on Find My Past so maybe you have found them already. But the library has information too about institutions and schools and presumably orphanages. It is a treasure trove of information, if you are able to go there.
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Ruth_W
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Re: birth in India

Post by Ruth_W »

mjashby wrote: 11 Jun 2015 20:46 Mike,

Well done. I didn't have time to trawl through the FindMyPast records but have followed through your leads and can add a little more from Ancestry:

John Grimshaw in the "Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900":
Indexed:
Name: John Grimshaw
snipped
Just be aware that the “Canada” in Ancestry’s title could well be misleading! It certainly was in earlier army records that ai have looked at. (quite a few of Ancestry’s titles are “off” …)
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Re: birth in India

Post by AdrianBruce »

Ruth_W wrote: 09 Mar 2022 08:57... Just be aware that the “Canada” in Ancestry’s title could well be misleading! ...
I think that they've listened and have changed it. It now appears to be called UK, Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900 and is advertised as WO 25/266–558, 632–634, 677–683, 686–688, 3913–3914, 5411-5516. It also explains:
This database contains registers and other records providing details on soldiers and officers in British military units that served in Canada at some point.
The "served in Canada" bit is why the original version had Canada in its name.
Adrian
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