* How do you solve Road Blocks?

[DragonLady]

I have been doing my genealogy for over 14-15 years now and I have some VERY long branches (all the way to Charlemagne on one). Luckily I discovered a website and it's archivist who had done and collected most of the information for two branches (yes I am my own 9th cousin ). In someways this has actually caused more problems since most of his files were from an old FTM GEDCOM and he had put in things like "See Tom's File" but then in Tom's file there are no notes. So, I am having to rebuild a lot of the data, thankfully I know he was very conscience about what he accepted so I know what is there is worth it and I have a list of his sources. Unfortunately he has passed away, so I can't pick his brain about things like "See Tom's File."

I also have both my Maternal and Paternal Genealogies that were down by Aunts who are members of the LDS. Unfortunately I have found that at least one of those Aunts was not as strict about her acceptance of information (I have found MANY errors). This makes me very leery of use of "Family Trees" on sites like Ancestry. I plan to go through and swap out sources from "Ancestry" to actual items such as Census documents.

So here is my Road Block; My MGGma was born in Charter Oak, Iowa, I can trace her paternal line back to Ulster Ireland. The problem comes with her Maternal side. I have her Mother's name, Mary Theresa Fallon born to Thomas Fallon & Mary Ann Brennon (Brennan) in England. I only have her father's name from her Marriage Certificate, I have no other information on him. That is also where I got her Mother's Maiden name. I have the passenger list from Mary T's immigration with her brothers and her mother is listed although her mother actually immigrated 2 years earlier. I have multiple Census records for both which show that the place of birth for both Marys parents was England.

Fallon & Brennon are obviously Irish surnames, but with first names of Mary Ann & Mary Theresa it is like looking for a Jones and a Smith here in the USA. I have Mary Theresa Fallon's DOB as 15 October 1872 possibly in Liverpool (the aforementioned Aunt's data). I have only the month and year of Mary Ann Brennon's DOB June 1855. I have tried looking into Mary Theresa's siblings (both full and half) but cannot seem to find any info. I have some notes from family but none of that has helped. The most laughable being that we were originally from "County Malarky, Dunangone, Ire." It doesn't exist!!!

Does anybody have any tips or suggestions??? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[davidm_uk]

Some of my road blocks over the years have been overcome as that result of publishing all or part of my tree on Ancestry (there are alternatives, but I think Ancestry maybe has the biggest customer base).

A week or two after publishing I then access the online tree and check out the "hot matches" that Ancestry has found, in particular matches against other member's trees. Looking at their trees may provide information that I hadn't found for whatever reason. It's worth revisiting your online tree every few weeks to see if anything new has been found as a result of members updating their trees, or new databases being added.

Of course, you have to be careful, there are many inaccuracies in some other peoples trees, but it may give you a clue where to look and then validate the information for yourself.

I know people here have mixed feelings about publishing trees on these commercial websites - but you make your own choice, it's worked for me.

[Jane]

I would check out the Liverpool clue, Ancestry has Liverpool church records as original images for both Parish and RC churches, you are probably looking for RC records, if so they tend to have good details for the parents so you should be able to check if the information matches.

Going back into Ireland can be tricky, but if both parents were born in England you may be able to go back another generation before heading to the Irish record desert.

[tatewise]

On FreeBMD I have found this Marriage entry:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1869
Brannan Mary Ann Liverpool 8b 418
FALLON Thomas Liverpool 8b 418
HEATH Elizabeth Liverpool 8b 418
Morley Thomas Liverpool 8b 418

A FreeBMD search for Birth of Thomas FALLON between 1850 and 1851 offered several potential leads.

[johnmorrisoniom]

I too have found the FreeBMD entry, but cannot find a matching entry through UKBMD.org, confusing.

[tatewise]

It is there in FindMyPast in England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Q4 1869 Liverpool Lancashire England 8B 418
THOMAS FALLON
MARY ANN BRANNAN

[Jane]

I too have found the FreeBMD entry, but cannot find a matching entry through UKBMD.org, confusing.

I think there are quite a few "holes" in the UKBMD for Liverpool.

[AdrianBruce]

... I think there are quite a few "holes" in the UKBMD for Liverpool.

Coverage of the marriage indexes on LancashireBMD (the relevant part of UKBMD) can be found on http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marrcov.php?region=LL

The 1869 Fallon / Brannan marriage can be found in Ancestry.com's "Liverpool, England, Catholic Marriages, 1754-1921 [database on-line]" where it is indexed under "Thomam Fallon; 24 Nov 1869, St Peter Priory, Mariam Annam Brannam". And no, that is not "typical Ancestry!" indexing - the record is in Latin.

According to a posting in http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk St. Peter Priory is now a restaurant - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter% ... _Liverpool

[DragonLady]

Oh My Gosh Tatewise you are my HERO!!! You too JohnMorrisoniom, and AdrianBruce! I have never heard of FreeBMD, probably because I am here in the states. I will have to check further into it since I have just wasted 3 hours on the familysearch.org site and found nothing new.

I will start checking here first. Thank you all again so much!!! Now if I can find her parents names.

[tatewise]

Have a look at research:useful_research_web_sites|> Useful Research Web Sites.

You already have several details, plus anything you get from purchasing the Marriage Certificate for Thomas & Mary Ann.

FreeBMD and other UK websites may reveal more information, and the Census returns every decade from 1841 onwards should fill in some gaps, because they group families together.

[DragonLady]

Quick question, I just did the calculation and Mar Ann would have only been 14.5 in Dec 1869, would that be unusual? She lived until at least 54 as I can still find her in the US census through 1910.

[DragonLady]

I found my 4x Great Grandmother's Maiden Surname no first name yet... but it is a start as soon as I have an extra $50 dollars or 30 pounds I will be ordering the birth record for Mary Ann BRANNAN and the Marriage certificate you wonderful people discovered for me. You can never know just how much I appreciate you!!!

[mjashby]

DragonLady,

1. Age at Marriage Question

It would certainly have been possible for your ancestor to have married at the age of 14 in England in 1869, but it would have been unusual for a variety of reasons including, of course, affordability, the need for parental consent and the fact that the terms of many/most apprenticeships precluded an individual getting married until the apprenticeship was completed. Regarding age restriction and put simply, before Hardwicke's Marriage Act of 1753 there was no lower legal age of marriage, except during the 1650's when it was 16 for men and 14 for women. In 1753 the age was fixed at 14 for men and 12 for women and remained at that until the Age of Marriage Act 1929 when it was raised to 16 for both (but parental consent was required in the case of minors).

2. Cost of Birth Death and Marriage Certificates

Whilst not exactly cheap, the cost of individual Certificates ordered directly from the General Register Office for England & Wales is currently £9.25, which is significantly less than the cost you mentioned. Take a look at http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ for details on how to order direct online rather than through an 'agent'.

Mervyn

[DragonLady]

1. Mervyn thanks so much for the great information!!! My Aunt (who is closer in age to me than her siblings, and is my Best Friend) got so excited when I called her with the new surname she began googling it. She was somewhat upset that it was yet another British event, I told her we were actually mostly British and that she was being prejudice and she said "yes I am" I tell gotta love that Stubborn Irish streak.

She found that McCarten is a Irish name (which tickled her pink) almost exclusively from County Down, and when looking at genealogies for that county they were several marriages between McCartens and Brannan (spelled Brennan in County Down).

2. £9.25 is $14.34 in US dollars so for 3 certificates (2 birth & 1 marriage) will cost me $43.02 and I always round cost up to cover incidentals such as shipping.

What information will a Birth Certificate and Marriage License from the 1800s have on them?

I am giddy as a school girl!!! Oh and the birth record I found for Mary Teresa is from 1870 not 1872 which keeps with the family tradition of the women lying about their age.. her Daughter convinced all the family that she was 10 yrs younger than her actual age. We have great genes and look very young for our age, I am told all the time that I am to young to have a 22 yr old even though I am actually in my 40's (most believe I am in my 30's). So there is a good chance that Mary Ann also lied about her age on the census records I have found.

[DragonLady]

Hmmm, I just found a second possible but in 1853, I guess I should order the marriage record first.

[tatewise]

Yes, it is a good idea to buy probable Certificates before wasting money on possible Certificates.
Last time I bought any there was no extra postal charge, but I live in the UK, and it may be different to USA.

[DragonLady]

My pay is more than expected for this paycheck, so I ordered the Marriage Certificate, according to my calculations (using GRO information) it should be here 11MAR2015.

I still cannot thank you all so much for your help!!!

[DragonLady]

I received the Marriage License today!!!

Unfortunately it actually added some questions. I have her birth as June 1855 but according to the license she was 19 at the time of Marriage, which actually makes more sense then her being 14 at the time of Marriage. I have her date of birth from two separate Census records as being June 1855 (US Census 1900) and between 1854-1855 (Iowa State Census 1885). My family has been known to "stretch the truth" about their age (we all age very well, I am in my 40's but thought to be mid 30's by many people).

It does not list a father of the Bride, but one of the witnesses is listed as James Brannan, and the female witness is a Mary Bisset who is listed as living on the same street (possibly the same address).

I am going to attach both records could someone give me your knowledgeable insight.

[tatewise]

It is not unknown for girls to lie about their age on a Marriage Certificate to avoid needing parental consent.

But you may want to do a bit more digging just in case there happen to be other Mary Ann BRANNAN that fit?

A quick seearch on FreeBMD finds several Mary Ann BRANNAN born in UK between 1848 and 1856.

[AdrianBruce]

For what it's worth, the omission of a father's name implies she admitted to being illegitimate. That would suggest that you can discard any birth certificate with married parents as not being her. Unless, of course, the mother lied about her marriage. And unfortunately, it's not easy for you to tell if the parents were married without purchasing the certificate. I think the only way of doing it for Liverpool (the story varies elsewhere) is to request a certificate from the GRO without a reference and ask them to check that the father's name is omitted.

Also, just as a minor correction - both those images show records of the marriage and neither is a licence. The first is the record of the ceremony in the Catholic church's registers; the second is the legal record of the marriage. Unlike many other countries (even Scotland), the legal record in England & Wales is not made afterwards, but as part of the same ceremony (usually) - in the case of the Church of England, the legal copy and the church copy are identical. Here, given that the legal record refers to the Catholic church of St. Peter's, it looks like both records do come from the same ceremony - the Catholic priest (William Dillon?) will have been there to conduct the religious part, and the registrar (Edward Clement) will also have been there to do the legal bit as part of the same ceremony. I have no idea what happened to the licence application in this era - post-1837 there are a plethora of different documents as alternatives to banns.

My only suggestion right now is that you may find something useful if you look for the witnesses.

[DragonLady]

Ugh, I am so confused... I sent an email with all my documents regarding her to my Mentor who is a distant cousin and has been doing this for 40 years. I am hoping she will give me insight. I have a gut feeling that she lied about her age, could that be why she omitted her fathers name? I have double checked all my census records (3) and all of them have her age lining up with a DOB in 1854-1856. On one that seems the most accurate and I have a feeling she was the one that gave the information it has her DOB as being June 1855.

It is almost 1 in the morning here, I think I will go to bed and look at this with fresh eyes, thank you for your insights!

[AdrianBruce]

... I have a gut feeling that she lied about her age, could that be why she omitted her fathers name?...

Seems unlikely to me, as omitting the father's name should only be done when the party is illegitimate. In effect, your suggestion is that to avoid a lie about her age being found out, she claims to be illegitimate? That seems very much a case of "out of the frying pan and into the fire".

She may very well have lied about her age, no doubt about that, but I don't think the omission of the father's name has anything to do with it. Any untruths in that direction are usually from inventing a legitimate father rather than claiming illegitimacy - regarded then as shameful.

[tatewise]

A useful exercise would be to find all relevant Census Returns from 1850 onwards.
If the Mary Ann on Marriage Certificate was 19 then she was born in 1849/50.
So she should appear in the UK 1851 Census aged about 1 year living with her parents.
If she was born between 1854-56, then she should appear in the UK 1861 Census aged about 6 with her parents.
Then she should appear in the UK 1871 Census, and each subsequent decade, with her husband and children.

If that is still not conclusive, you may have to trace any other relevant Mary Ann BRANNAN, and through the usual BMD/Census records identify their separate life history, so they can be eliminated.

[TimTreeby]

Have done a very quick search and produced a basic family tree based on this Baptism.

FrancusFallon-1.png (180.88 KiB) Viewed 13408 times

BrannanTree.png (40.89 KiB) Viewed 13408 times

Without getting certificates etc or having more info re your family cannot be certain is correct, but having checked census etc believe it is.

[AnneEast]

Giving her age as 19 may have looked better to our modern eyes but she would have still needed permission from someone because the age of majority was 21 at the time. It was perfectly legal to marry at 14 at that time so why lie about her age? I have seen marriages of Minors that say "with the consent of friends" in the absence of a father. If she was Catholic she may have been known personally by the Priest so even less likely to lie, I would have thought. I do think you need to find and eliminate all the other candidates for Mary Ann.
Anne