* The "Ireland" question

[AdrianBruce]

Late last night I hit an issue that I knew I would sooner or later. The basic question is: "What do we mean by Ireland?"

Since the world has not come crashing round my ears (yet), I may not be far from "best practice" but I thought I'd ask you guys for your advice, not least because we're all working under the same software limitations.

I'd been happily adding events that took place in Ireland in the 1800s and recording them against place-names like (e.g.) "Nenagh, Co. Tipperary, Ireland". No problem. Then last night I entered a 1930s burial for the same place and recorded it again as "Nenagh, Co. Tipperary, Ireland". Only after did I wonder whether that was the best way of doing it for events in post-Independence Ireland.

I guess the obvious alternatives would be "Nenagh, Co. Tipperary, Irish Free State" or "Nenagh, Co. Tipperary, Republic of Ireland".

I dislike those alternatives because (a) they're too long (b) they refer to the political state, not the country (I have no intention of writing "The Federal Republic of Germany", for instance) (c) that gives me extra places called Nenagh - there's only one and (d) I'd have to start trying to remember when the Free State turned into the Republic. (According to Wikipedia, it seems I need not consider Eire as that is simply Gaelic for Ireland).

In fact, I wonder what the downside of continuing with "Nenagh, Co. Tipperary, Ireland" might be? Any advice?

Of course, if I do continue with "Ireland" for Nenagh that would then imply that if I had somewhere that was in (say) "County Down, Ireland" before Independence, then I really ought to record it as "County Down, Northern Ireland" after....

Any advice on what people find best?

[tatewise]

This is just one of the many, many places with multiple names over time.
It is why I proposed how_to:create_locations_database_details|> Locations Database of Place & Address Details and why a Locations database figures in GEDCOM extensions and the FH Wish List.
Then you can use whatever strategy works; either one consistent Place name throughout, or time dependent Place names; each one supported by Source/Repository details of the history of the Place with all its names.

[jmurphy]

I'm just a dumb-end user, so what do I know, but --

I can't see why a standard for family history shouldn't support places the same way they do people.

Theoretically speaking -- why can't our individual databases essentially be a subset of the kind of information found in A Vision of Britain Through Time, or the GENUKI gazetteers, so that we could record both the name of the place as it appears in the particular source record, AND have some sort of mechanism in the software that would link all the various place nomenclatures in a timeline, the same way a timeline of events is shown for a person?

It seems to me that all the underlying code that was written to display information about people could easily be re-purposed; it's a pity that that the software wasn't designed with that in mind from the beginning.

P.S. This is not a criticism of Simon Orde -- I am complaining about the initial design of GEDCOM.

[AdrianBruce]

Thanks guys - apologies for being a bit tardy with my response but I was rather hoping someone else might have an opinion on what names to use for which bits of the island of Ireland post-1922.

I rather think I'm going to use "Ireland" for all the island pre-1922, "Ireland" for south of the border post-1922 (i.e. the Irish Free State, the Republic of Ireland, etc.) and "Northern Ireland" for north of the border post-1922 (i.e. the province within the UK).

I just, in fact, got even more confused when I found there is a whole Wikipedia article on "Names of the Irish state" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state - apparently even today "the Republic of Ireland ... is the legal description for the state" but "Ireland remains the constitutional name of the state" (my italics). And yes, there are more than 2 options it seems, partly depending on whether I'm using a name or a description...

As for time-dependent place-names - well, yes, I totally agree!

[jimlad68]

I would go with the "name at the time" to fit in with the "cultural/actual historical" and the lat/long for precision. I might also add a note for alternative current names, but how long will it be current!

[mjashby]

Adrian,

Take a look at http://alt-usage-english.org/english_br ... ml#ireland and http://alt-usage-english.org/ireland.html for a relatively straightforward presentation of the geographic divisions and name differences over time.

Basically Ireland or Eire more properly refers to the whole of the "island of Ireland" which constitutes the following;

a) the Republic of Ireland (ROI), i.e the correct name for the sovereign state that was at one time known as the Irish Free State; and
b) Northern Ireland which continues as a part of the United Kingdom.

Mervyn

[AdrianBruce]

... the Republic of Ireland (ROI), i.e the correct name for the sovereign state that was at one time known as the Irish Free State; ...

Except, the Wikipedia article I linked to has extensive quotes from Irish government sources making it clear that "Republic of Ireland" is not the correct name but is a correct description. Plus quotes from government figures in Dublin who got most upset over the British government studiously ignoring Dublin's request that "Ireland" was the correct name for the country. Which (this was several decades ago) had a lot to do with Dublin's then claim to the whole of the island of Ireland and Westminster's desire to make it clear that Dublin did not rule the whole of the island of Ireland. (This seems to be very much the gist of the 2nd article linked to by Mervyn).

Personally, I want to stay well out of creating any controversy over names - it so happens that the lazy way of "Ireland" for all the island pre-1922, "Ireland" for south of the border post-1922 and "Northern Ireland" for north of the border post-1922 does seem to match current sensibilities quite well.

PS 1 - "south of the border" is a misnomer up in the, ahem, top-left corner of the map!
PS 2 - best steer clear of "Ulster" which has a dual meaning depending on whether you mean the 9-county province of pre-1922 Ireland or the informal name for 6-county Northern Island.

- if you're not confused, you don't understand what's going on....