Family Historian User Group

I do much of my research in French records and have found that AS 7.7.3 does not seem to allow the use of diacritics; especially in the Place field of the data entry screen. The associated FH7 program does allow diacritic entry. This means that there are some recorded places and names that AS cannot enter or find during data entry and precludes its use in some cases. Could this diacritic capability be added?

Since V6.2 FH has a custom method for adding accented/diacritic characters and symbols but earlier versions did not.
See FHUG Knowledge Base How to Enter Accented and Other Special Characters which work for any native Windows program.
Remember that entering the first few characters should allow AS to present the matching Place/Address.

Gary_G wrote: ↑

31 Mar 2023 13:11

I do much of my research in French records and have found that AS 7.7.3 does not seem to allow the use of diacritics; especially in the Place field of the data entry screen. The associated FH7 program does allow diacritic entry. This means that there are some recorded places and names that AS cannot enter or find during data entry and precludes its use in some cases. Could this diacritic capability be added?

The Alt+ side keyboard instructions work for me on a Windows computer - is there a Mac equivalent? ... Answered my own question (librarians generally can't leave a question unanswered) - there is indeed - see this link: https://libguides.wellesley.edu/french/keyboard. Is this method not working in AS?

I also found I could copy and paste diacritics into AS as well. My example below (obviously not a proper entry) shows Québec (third character entered using Alt+130) and then my 2nd great-grandfather's name, copied and pasted in from the Polish keyboard I access online.

I am running FH7 on Windows 11 using Parallels, so the Mac-like shortcuts are not always available.
FH7 has the capability to directly enter diacritics (without alt kludges) and so the support application AS should likely consider making this available as well. In French genealogy, diacritics are spread throughout the whole of the text entered, even on the initial characters that might trigger a pick list. So; having to use extra keystrokes every time one is encountered is not really practical. Using an external editor to cut and paste individual diacritics is equally impractical. Without this ability, using AS for French genealogy is cumbersome and entering things directly into FH7 is likely the best way to go.

All that said, I really think it up to the author of AS to make the decision for his program.

I don't recall being asked about this before over the last 18 years that I've been developing this software and it's predecessor.

Can you explain or point me in the direction of something that explains what you are referring to when you say 'FH7 has the capability to directly enter diacritics (without alt kludges)'.

Nick;

If one presses and holds a key, the current version of FH7 pops up a panel with the diacritic keys for that letter (see attached). As I have over 800 French people in my project and do extensive transcriptions of the associated record, this is a key feature for me. (excuse the pun)

While this behaviour is present in FH7, it is not in AS7.

Never mind, I've worked it out. In Family Historian you hold down a key (e.g. a) and it shows various accented options and there's an associated settings dialogue with lots of different character sets.

Sorry just posted this as you replied. I didn't know about this feature before.

Ok. Odd that nobody has seen this, given the responses so far.

By the way; do you know if a foreign keyboard would work with FH7 (and possibly with AS7)?
I do so many transcriptions and tend to touch-type, that this may also be a solution.

Gary_G wrote: ↑

31 Mar 2023 16:28

While this behaviour is present in FH7, it is not in AS7.

This is true, but on the other hand Calico Pie earn a living from producing the software, whereas mine is provided for free. Some people are kind enough to make donations which are always gratefully received, but I just don't have the time and resources to match everything they do (though I do try my best!). I will look into this though.

Gary_G wrote: ↑

31 Mar 2023 16:31

Ok. Odd that nobody has seen this, given the responses so far.

By the way; do you know if a foreign keyboard would work with FH7 (and possibly with AS7)?
I do so many transcriptions and tend to touch-type, that this may also be a solution.

Ancestral Sources just uses the standard Windows form text boxes (although I do add extra functionality such as the auto-complete, etc.) so I'd expect a foreign keyboard would work, but I've never used anything except a UK one so I can't be sure.

Nick;
That quote was not meant in the sense you may have taken it. I appreciate that you offer AS for free. I used to develop freeware programs and know that development time is "stolen" from other places in ones life.

I mentioned it only because you've done such an excellent job of capturing many of the new FH7 features, but you obviously were not aware of this one that may be of interest to a number of people. Now that you know it's there, I'm sure you'll consider it when you have the time.

If you use a British Keyboard and I use a North American model, then it is likely that a foreign keyboard would also work. So that is a possibility for me.

If you use a British Keyboard and I use a North American model, then it is likely that a foreign keyboard would also work. So that is a possibility for me.

I was just going to post something about that. I see you are in Canada. You should be able to pick up a reasonably priced Canadian Multilingual keyboard from Amazon or a local BestBuy (or equivalent). I do that and regularly switch my keyboard input settings from US to Canadian Multilingual settings as needed. As long as your OS settings include both keyboard layouts you should have no issues.

CLARIFICATION - My language settings (Windows 11) are Canadian English. I have two keyboard layouts installed: US-QWERTY and (CMS) Canadian Multilingual Standard-QWERTY. I hot switch between them as needed using the Windows-spacebar keys. The reason I switch back and forth is because I prefer the US layout for coding (habit from my working days), but I find the CMS layout better suited for entering text containing French accented characters.

No Alt keys are ever abused in this configuration.

I cannot speak for MACS but I would assume something similar should exist in the Apple world.

Harold;

I've checked and found that one can get physically different language keyboards for the Mac, but I'm not so sure about multi-lingual ones. I'll have to see about this. Good to hear from someone who is using a multi-lingual keyboard.

NickWalker wrote: ↑

31 Mar 2023 16:33

Ancestral Sources just uses the standard Windows form text boxes (although I do add extra functionality such as the auto-complete, etc.) so I'd expect a foreign keyboard would work, but I've never used anything except a UK one so I can't be sure.

Nick, it does work in AS in its native Windows environment - I can select Alt+130 and get é , but it doesn't for Gary using it in Parallels on a Mac, where the short-cuts are Mac-based. I also use diacritics, including French ones, so am well familiar with the situation Gary has raised. For my Polish records, I will likely have to use my FH templates, not AS, as copying and pasting all the Polish diacritics in will be time consuming. The Polish diacritics are only available by changing my keyboard in Windows and then changing it back, as they're not included in the standard Alt-keystroke set. The French ones I have long had memorized.

I certainly don't expect you to figure out that one for me as it's very niche and would definitely not be worth the time/effort as few users would be interested.

Actually; I believe there is a Mac equivalent of the "select Alt+130 and get é" practice, but it's never actually used, because the Mac has a built-in selection panel like FH7 uses. Would the shortcuts get passed through to Windows 11?... I don't know.

My point was more that with the number of diacritics in any piece of French text, the way FH7 does it is much quicker and detracts less from the transcription in progress. As for purchasing a Mac foreign language keyboard... well that is the $99 CDN question. It would be the Cadillac solution, if I can find one.

While I and others would find the FH7 technique useful, the decision of what to implement is totally up to the author. I know his time is limited. I'll manage one way or the other.

Gary_G wrote: ↑

31 Mar 2023 14:37

I am running FH7 on Windows 11 using Parallels, so the Mac-like shortcuts are not always available.
FH7 has the capability to directly enter diacritics (without alt kludges) and so the support application AS should likely consider making this available as well. In French genealogy, diacritics are spread throughout the whole of the text entered, even on the initial characters that might trigger a pick list. So; having to use extra keystrokes every time one is encountered is not really practical. Using an external editor to cut and paste individual diacritics is equally impractical. Without this ability, using AS for French genealogy is cumbersome and entering things directly into FH7 is likely the best way to go.

All that said, I really think it up to the author of AS to make the decision for his program.

Windows 10 and 11 both have the ability to enter most characters point and click.

In Windows 10, hold down the “Windows Key” and press the semicolon and a pop up window is revealed. Select the Omega (symbols) option and enter/select the character you want to use.

Or

Look for the keyboard icon on the right-hand side of your taskbar, bring up the on-screen keyboard, and hold down (or left-click and hold) your cursor over the letter you’d like to accent.

If you don’t see the icon it needs to be turned on by right clicking on the taskbar and selecting the option.

I'd just like to make sure I draw this thread back on topic.

The issue is not so much whether one can or can't enter diacritics in some fashion, but rather the number of keystrokes to do it while trying to keep ones concentration on the task at hand. Fewer is better.

My ONLY reason for posting about the diacritics capability of FH7 is because it seemed not to be widely known and would be a benefit in AS. The AS author is already doing yeoman service in maintaining a free piece of software. I'm sure he'll consider the suggestion, if and when he has time.

As Gary has said, this is a feature that I certainly wasn't aware of before and I'm grateful to him for mentioning it. I am investigating, although this isn't a straightforward thing to add as it requires a slightly messy way to override the normal behaviour of a textbox which is to repeat the character multiple times and then of course all the pop-up functionality so the alternative characters can be selecting.

Gary_G wrote: ↑

31 Mar 2023 23:45

My point was more that with the number of diacritics in any piece of French text, the way FH7 does it is much quicker and detracts less from the transcription in progress. As for purchasing a Mac foreign language keyboard... well that is the $99 CDN question. It would be the Cadillac solution, if I can find one.

All depends on what one is used to. My MA History thesis was about JL David, so I had plenty of French characters and don't even think twice about using the keyboard shortcuts now - just part of my typing workflow. I've finally tracked down similar shortcuts for Polish, but in the end, may continue with the current way of doing it in FH as it will take me a while to memorize.

Interestingly enough, when testing the Polish keyboard shortcuts in AS, they don't work in the Entry fields (though the French ones do) but DO work in the Text and Note fields. I can live with that, and just quickly fix the characters once I'm in FH.

Except, I've just discovered the same issue in FH. Holding down the L key in any of the fields in a Source template or even a note does not give me a choice other than the lower case unless I click on the cog and then select the upper case Ł. I seem to recall it working before, so very odd. See screen capture.

That's interesting, Teresa.

If it at least works in areas in which I'm typing French transcriptions, then I can likely live with it.

You know; RootsMagic is struggling with the diacritic issue. Seems that in FH7, they either work completely or are not used. In RM9, the behaviour seems to be very random. When they don't work correctly, they show both the non-diacritic character and the diacritic one. That is they didn't backspace and overwrite the non-diacritic character. That behaviour is an artifact of the way the feature is implemented in Windows. At least Calico Pie seems to have that aspect working correctly in the places in which they appear to have chosen to include it. The selection of character sets is something you should note to Calico Pie, as I think that is not such a difficult fix. Better Reliability/Robustness is part of why I chose to move from RM9 to FH7 (and AS). So; I'm behind Nick in his being carefully about this functionality.

fhtess65 wrote: ↑

01 Apr 2023 15:45

Except, I've just discovered the same issue in FH. Holding down the L key in any of the fields in a Source template or even a note does not give me a choice other than the lower case unless I click on the cog and then select the upper case Ł. I seem to recall it working before, so very odd.

What have you got configured for lowercase l and uppercase L in the configure dialogue?
By default, nothing is defined for either case of the letter L.
You also may have to repeat the correct case of the letter to be able to choose an accented variant.
If you want to be able to choose both say ł and Ł regardless of whether lowercase l or uppercase L is repeated then both those letters must have both accented characters in their definition.

Except, I've just discovered the same issue in FH. Holding down the L key in any of the fields in a Source template or even a note does not give me a choice other than the lower case unless I click on the cog and then select the upper case Ł. I seem to recall it working before, so very odd. See screen capture.

If I click the settings cog and add the Polish accent set, the lower and upper case L show the two different accent characters.

OK, that is why I asked about the configuration setting.
I have no problem using the repeat character process in any field including Notes, template Metafields, et al.

Right, I forgot I have to hold down the Shift key to get the upper case - all good now. Distracted by an ill geriatric cat, so not thinking things through properly. Thanks for the reminder

tatewise wrote: ↑

01 Apr 2023 16:23

What have you got configured for lowercase l and uppercase L in the configure dialogue?
By default, nothing is defined for either case of the letter L.
You also may have to repeat the correct case of the letter to be able to choose an accented variant.
If you want to be able to choose both say ł and Ł regardless of whether lowercase l or uppercase L is repeated then both those letters must have both accented characters in their definition.

Sorry for not being clear - yes, that does work, the extra click on the cog is annoying. Mike reminded me I need to hold down the Shift key to get the upper case letter to display.

Thanks

NickWalker wrote: ↑

01 Apr 2023 17:41

If I click the settings cog and add the Polish accent set, the lower and upper case L show the two different accent characters.