* Census Witness

AS allows faster and more convenient creation of source records for Family Historian.
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Chrisv
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Census Witness

Post by Chrisv »

Is there a down-side to using the witness feature in FH with a census created in AS using method 1? I know it is not necessary, since the persons are already linked via the source, but it seems an easy way to see who else is in a particular census. For instance; if I see that Johnny Peeps has a 1930 Census fact and I am interested in who else is part of this census, if I use the witness feature, I can simply double click on the fact to see who else is in the census. Is there a better, easier way to accomplish the same? Are there any reasons why this is a bad thing to do?
Thanks!
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Re: Census Witness

Post by jbtapscott »

Can't necessarily advise which is the right / wrong method, but I use AS to capture Census data and make use of the AutoText feature in AS. This way all the data that I have entered is recorded, formatted as a grid, in the Text from Source field in the Source record. I therefore just need to open the Source record within FH to see all the individuals associated with a given Census record.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by Chrisv »

Perfect! Thank You.
That solves my thinking of whether or not to use the Witness feature for census records. There is no sense in using the Witness feature in this situation if I use the Text from Source box as you suggest. Also, it gives the actual wording of the census for a true interpretation!
Thanks! Another problem put to bed.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by jbtapscott »

Glad that helped!. I would also suggest (in case you have a lousy memory like me!!) that you turn on the AS Options / Census settings / When saving entries.... Warn if no source text flag.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by Chrisv »

Is there a down-side to using the witness feature in FH with a census created in AS using method 1? I know it is not necessary, since the persons are already linked via the source, but it seems an easy way to see who else is in a particular census. For instance; if I see that Johnny Peeps has a 1930 Census fact and I am interested in who else is part of this census, if I use the witness feature, I can simply double click on the fact to see who else is in the census. Is there a better, easier way to accomplish the same? Are there any reasons why this is a bad thing to do?
So, let's change it around a little, and instead of a census entered through AS; what if we have a situation such as a Passenger Ship list, where we have a family coming over to the USA. I have made an Immigration fact for each member of the family, entered the Source (which is the Passenger Ship list) and copied it over to each individual, but I am still interested in the same question asked above, which is - What if I see that Johnny Peeps has an Immigration fact, and am interested in who else is part of this Immigration, if I use the Witnesses feature, I can simply double click on the fact to see who else Immigrated.
Is there a better, easier way to accomplish the same? Are there any reasons why this is a bad thing to do?
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Re: Census Witness

Post by tatewise »

Chris, the answer is exactly the same as for the Census case.
The structure of multiple facts all citing the same Source record is just the same.
It is the same for any circumstance where multiple people are involved and share the same Source Citation.

The only distinction is whether the people are considered as Fact Principals or Fact Witnesses.

The members of a Census household or a family in a Passenger Ship List are all Fact Principals.
I assume you would have a specific Source for just the family in the Passenger Ship List, rather than list everyone on board.

On the other hand, at a wedding, only the bride and groom are Fact Principals, and the Witnesses, Best Man, Bridesmaids, etc, are Fact Witnesses.

Having said all that, it is feasible to have multiple facts citing the same Source AND have Fact Witnesses shortcuts.
As you say, the Fact Witnesses list is only a click away. However, it requires a significant amount of multiple entry because each of the multiple facts must have the list of Fact Witnesses added. Also, you need to review how they appear in Reports.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by Chrisv »

As you say, the Fact Witnesses list is only a click away. However, it requires a significant amount of multiple entry because each of the multiple facts must have the list of Fact Witnesses added. Also, you need to review how they appear in Reports.
So, here's a rather "outside of the box" idea. What if I were to change an AS Census template to have the Auto Text Table designed for a Non-Census type event. Somewhere, I saw where you can design different Census templates?? Would it not output exactly as it does for a Census template by adding an appropriate table to the Notes window and at the same time adding all the Principals and Facts and Links and... Oh drat! I bet it would make all the Facts as Census Facts :(.
Is there any chance this could somehow be feasible? Maybe @NickWalker could develop a Variable Fact series where you are able to "Fill In" the Fact Type you want??
So, assuming my stupid/crazy/broken box idea was not workable, are there any other more workable ideas where you don't have to assign facts to every person and you can rather easily see who else is "on the ship" without having to go through the following selection of: Select Source Record→ View→ Record Links→ Plus(+)→ Screenshot (to enable my brain to remember all the names)?
Also, I have not even attempted to understand the world of FH templates...
As always - Thanks so much for any input!
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Re: Census Witness

Post by tatewise »

Can we review how you discover the family of Principal people who share an event.
Let us take an example of a Census, but the process is the same for any similar event.
  1. Assume you have found the Property Box of one person and selected the Census event in the Facts tab.
  2. If necessary, enable the yellow Sources For pane listing the Census Source Citation.
  3. Either double-click the Census Source Rec on left, or select Citation and click large blue arrow Go To Source Record.
  4. The Source record Property Box is displayed, and the Text from Source tab lists the entire family of Principal people with active links to each one.
If you customise the Source record Property Box to show the Text from Source on the Main tab, that final step is not needed.
So I don't understand why you think the process is difficult. Once you have opened the Source record, the names of the family members are immediately available. There is no need to View > Record Links..., etc, unless you want to find each specific Fact Citation. But for that you use View > Citations to Source Record... or run a plugin.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by NickWalker »

Chrisv wrote: 04 May 2022 13:25 So, here's a rather "outside of the box" idea. What if I were to change an AS Census template to have the Auto Text Table designed for a Non-Census type event. Somewhere, I saw where you can design different Census templates?? Would it not output exactly as it does for a Census template by adding an appropriate table to the Notes window and at the same time adding all the Principals and Facts and Links and... Oh drat! I bet it would make all the Facts as Census Facts :(.
Is there any chance this could somehow be feasible? Maybe @NickWalker could develop a Variable Fact series where you are able to "Fill In" the Fact Type you want??
I think AS already does this - a "census" template can use census, residence or a custom fact.
So, assuming my stupid/crazy/broken box idea was not workable, are there any other more workable ideas where you don't have to assign facts to every person and you can rather easily see who else is "on the ship" without having to go through the following selection of: Select Source Record→ View→ Record Links→ Plus(+)→ Screenshot (to enable my brain to remember all the names)?
AS does things the way it does things because I think (and a lot of other experienced FH users agree), that this is the best way to record data given the features in FH that are available to us. Witness records don't do all the things you would want to do (as Mike has explained). Things like census 'family' records don't work either. So all the various potential alternatives have been found wanting. There is one other feature though that you may not have explored...

What you might consider is having AS create a hyper-link for each individual when it generates the source text using the Auto-text. In that way you only need to view the source record and click the links to go to the individual. That is under the 2nd page within AS Options (Source text settings).
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https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/ancestral-sources/
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Re: Census Witness

Post by Chrisv »

I incorrectly stated that the Census Principal people were viewed in the Notes window, when I should have said they are viewed in the Text from Source box (and Text from Source tab).

Thanks Mike, for stepping through the process, which confirms that we are both talking about the same thing with a Census entered through AS.
There is a part where I am still confused. It is having to do with where you said the following:
Let us take an example of a Census, but the process is the same for any similar event.

I don't understand how it is possible to see the Principals in the Text from Source box in the case of a Non-Census item, which cannot be entered through AS. That is what I've been trying to find a way to accomplish; either with the Text from Source tab/box, or through another solution.
Obviously, I am either not understanding something here, or we are back to this being an unsolvable thing to do in the case of a "Passenger Ship List" type of situation.

Nick. Thanks for pointing out the hyper-link. That is a neat feature, and I will definitely be taking advantage of it.
I appreciate you explaining that AS is set up "to record data given the features in FH that are available to us." I can't begin to understand all the complexities of a program such as AS. It is way, way above my comprehension!
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Re: Census Witness

Post by jbtapscott »

The AutoText template can contain references to all Individuals who are included on the AS input. So, as an example, for a Baptism record, you can select the child's parents, as well as Witnesses, Vicar / Minister, etc etc., and the template can be configured to include all these names in the Text From Source field. Indeed, many of the templates are already setup to do this.
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Re: Census Witness

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Chrisv wrote: 04 May 2022 17:05 I don't understand how it is possible to see the Principals in the Text from Source box in the case of a Non-Census item, which cannot be entered through AS. That is what I've been trying to find a way to accomplish; either with the Text from Source tab/box, or through another solution.
Obviously, I am either not understanding something here, or we are back to this being an unsolvable thing to do in the case of a "Passenger Ship List" type of situation.
The first thing to recognise is that everything that AS does automatically can also be done manually.

I assume that you know how to assign Source Citations to any Facts. (If I'm wrong then say so.)
So for the Passenger Ship List example, you would have a Source record for a family (just like a Census).
You could for example add an Emigration fact to the head of the family and add a Citation of the Souce record.
Then use the Copy Fact button, and for each other family member, use the Paste Fact button to create duplicate facts.
So now all the family members have an Emigration fact linked via the Citation to the Source record.

Either now or when you prepared the Source Citation, the Text from Source field needs to be completed with a transcript.
In the Source record, open the Text from Source tab and use the Add Text from Source > <Empty Text> option.
That opens the Text from Source rich text editor window where you can create the transcript.
The chain link icon in the toolbar allows you to Add Link to Individual Record... for each family member.

If you have a great many Passenger Ship List families to enter then it may be worth creating an Auto-Text script, but the links to each family member will still need to entered by hand.

Does that make sense?
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry
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Re: Census Witness

Post by NickWalker »

Chrisv wrote: 04 May 2022 17:05 I don't understand how it is possible to see the Principals in the Text from Source box in the case of a Non-Census item, which cannot be entered through AS. That is what I've been trying to find a way to accomplish; either with the Text from Source tab/box, or through another solution.
I'm a bit puzzled by this comment. AS has 6 source types - census, baptism, birth, marriage, death and burial. It generates facts for all these (e.g. marriage records might generate marriage facts, births, residence records, occupations, etc.) and source records, media records, etc. The auto-text facility will help to generate the transcript of the source too.

This screenshot shows a marriage source being entered and the auto-text has generated the source text you can see. It also includes hyper-links to the individuals:

Image
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Re: Census Witness

Post by tatewise »

But Chrisv is asking about facts "which cannot be entered through AS", i.e. must be entered by hand.
He gave as an example a Passenger Ship List for a family.
I suspect Chrisv does not understand the manual process involved in reproducing what AS does automatically.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by NickWalker »

I interpreted Chrisv as saying non-census items can't be entered through AS.
box in the case of a Non-Census item, which cannot be entered through AS.
Non-census items can be entered through AS (if they are birth/marriage/death/baptism/burial and voting lists too).

I do concede though that they might have just worded this badly/ambigiously. If it's a non-census/birth/death/marriage/baptism/burial then it just needs to be entered manually in FH, creating the source, entering the source text, creating the facts with citations to the source, linking the media, etc. AS doesn't do anything that couldn't be done manually in FH, it just makes it quicker and easier.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by Chrisv »

Sorry Nick. I was not clear. I am talking about records that are not the standard AS types. Not, Birth, Baptism, Marriage, Census, etc.
Give me a few moments to digest the rest of the replies...
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Re: Census Witness

Post by Chrisv »

I did not realise the Text from Source field was an editable field. I thought it only reflected what a Source record would say :oops:
I also did not know about the Table option and the awesome feature of Linking within this field. It is just like the Note box, which I have used often, (but still did not try the linking tool). This opens a lot of options and completely answers my initial question - and solves the "Passenger Ship List" problem!
Mike, you mentioned copying and pasting the Fact that has a citation linked to it, to other persons. Do I understand you correctly, that this will actually not only copy the fact, but it will also copy the Citation that was linked to the head of the family? That is so cool!

Sorry it took me so long to explain what it was I was looking for.
Thanks everyone for your input!
I'm going to jump over to the AS forum, because I now have some questions about it's options also.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by NickWalker »

tatewise wrote: 04 May 2022 18:37 Now we are clear about what Chrisv is asking, may I clean up the replies that are offering AS as a solution, which it is not?
No please don't - I really don't like it when that happens, threads are meant to be discussions, warts and all, rather than just sanitised answers to questions. Sometimes people who read threads learn things from the digressions, e.g. someone reading this might not know about AS and will be prompted to look into using sources other than census, etc.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by Chrisv »

Fair Enough, Nick.
While I was waiting for some replies and after Brent tickled my curiosity about AS's templates, it reminded me that somewhere I saw where you can customise some of the AS templates. So I started tinkering, and much to my surprise, even though I am new to both AS and FH, I was able to make a custom template on AS that appears to do everything I wanted, plus quite a bit more! Now, understand that this is a first attempt, so don't beat me up too badly if it/I have a number of flaws.
Here is what I came up with:
- Made a custom AS Census template called Passenger Ship List that uses a custom FH Event called Passenger Ship List and is usable for any date needed.
- Made a custom table that mimics the Ship's List document that will show up in the Text from Source tab with Links to the Principals involved.
- Brought into AS, one of my custom Source templates (I only use four custom templates for all my sources).
- Entered all the data following the exact manner as with any AS Census input which auto filled out the Table that exactly mimicked the actual 1887 record.
- Imported the data into FH, and surprisingly, it filled in all the people on the list, populated the Text from Source tab with hyper-links, and linked all the Principals (people) to the Source.
I know there will be some major glitz that will mean it won't work, because it just seemed to easy?!? It is definitely easier to enter records like this in AS, than having to do the same exclusively in FH.
Okay guys -- lets hear all the reasons why this method won't work for Non-Census and Non-Birth, Death, etc records??
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Re: Census Witness

Post by NickWalker »

Chrisv wrote: 04 May 2022 22:36 Okay guys -- lets hear all the reasons why this method won't work for Non-Census and Non-Birth, Death, etc records??
What you've done here looks good to me. The census templates can be adapted to a number of different source types but practically only where there is one set of data per person and a number of well defined data fields recorded about each.
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Re: Census Witness

Post by johnmorrisoniom »

Looks excellent to me.
I don't use templated sources, so will have a go at creating my own variant and use the Emigration standard event. There appear to be three or four variations of shipping list, so I would create a different template for each.

I have already have an autotext template for Death events from a probate calendar which works extremely well.

Just a case of thinking outside the box.
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