Page 2 of 2

Re: Amended GRO birth record

Posted: 22 Jan 2023 11:18
by Little.auk
arthurk wrote:
21 Jan 2023 19:28
Thanks for that clarification - it explains a lot, but I'm still puzzled as to why jelv can't find the new name in the index. I suspect ordering the certificate may be the best way to work it out.
As I said in a previous post, adoption is a completely different event to birth, it has it's own certification and indexing system. If the "new" name was because of adoption - it will NOT appear in the births index. A step-father adopting his wife's child has absolutely nothing to do with the birth of the child (unless, of course, he was the real father of the child!)

It is worth checking out the FreeBMD link in RS3100's post. It gives a couple of examples of why a re-registration might take place.

However, there is one puzzling thing about this entry - if this is a later amendment, why is the original page number of 825 higher than the added page number 0465?

Re: Amended GRO birth record

Posted: 22 Jan 2023 13:47
by RS3100
Little.auk wrote:
22 Jan 2023 11:18
However, there is one puzzling thing about this entry - if this is a later amendment, why is the original page number of 825 higher than the added page number 0465?
Because it was entered in a subsequent quarter or year? We don't know the full index reference for this record, but John could check against the page map index:

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/district-page-map-index.html

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/district-pag ... index.html

I agree that the amendment is very unlikely to be anything related to an adoption. Obtaining a copy of the entry from GRO will almost certainly produce an explanation.

Perhaps it's just me, but I'm also a little confused about Victor's reply. Yes, the District Record Office will (should) have the original register, and may be able to supply a copy, but in my experience not all record offices are willing to do so, nor will all of them do so automatically. Some produce a typed transcript unless an image of the original entry is specifically requested.

The certificate or PDF supplied by GRO is a copy of a record copied by hand from the original district office register. The original entries were copied into a second register, which was sent at the end of each quarter to the Registrar General. It is the latter copies that GRO supply. But a GRO PDF is cheaper and will likely provide the answer to John's question. If copies of the original entries are important, then a telephone call to the district office to establish if they can/are willing to do that would be a better approach.

Re: Amended GRO birth record

Posted: 22 Jan 2023 15:16
by AdrianBruce
RS3100 wrote:
22 Jan 2023 13:47
Little.auk wrote:
22 Jan 2023 11:18
However, there is one puzzling thing about this entry - if this is a later amendment, why is the original page number of 825 higher than the added page number 0465?
Because it was entered in a subsequent quarter or year?...
But then I struggle to see the point of the annotation - how is anyone reading that 0465 supposed to know where to find the amended page (if that's what it is)? They need to know the year and quarter. But if it doesn't tell me where to look, isn't it pointless? I suspect that's why I thought it was a reference to a separate book of correspondence, not a page number. (Added to which, why is there a leading zero if it's a page number?)

Re: Amended GRO birth record

Posted: 22 Jan 2023 15:42
by jelv
Something that has just occurred to me, I don't know when it went through, but April 1965 may be about the right date for the adoption...

Re: Amended GRO birth record

Posted: 22 Jan 2023 19:48
by RS3100
AdrianBruce wrote:
22 Jan 2023 15:16
But then I struggle to see the point of the annotation - how is anyone reading that 0465 supposed to know where to find the amended page (if that's what it is)? They need to know the year and quarter. But if it doesn't tell me where to look, isn't it pointless? I suspect that's why I thought it was a reference to a separate book of correspondence, not a page number. (Added to which, why is there a leading zero if it's a page number?)
Looking into this further, I think my supposition was probably incorrect. Remembering that I have a few certificates for supplementary references and amendments, I searched my project to find some examples.

I have a marriage entry, which originally appeared in the GRO index as volume 7a, page 511. A handwritten addition had been made to the bottom of the index page referencing the same entry as volume 7a/4230/S. Both index entries otherwise appeared exactly identical when searched under the name of the groom, but when searched under the name of the bride, there was an additional letter "e" in the spelling of her surname in the original index entry, which was missing from her surname in the handwritten supplementary entry.

FreeBMD (incorrectly it transpired) flagged the supplementary entry as a possible late entry, because the apparent page number, 4230, was outside the expected range for the district, which was from 479 to 519 for that quarter.

I enquired about that at the time on another forum, where I received a reply from a retired BMD registrar, who told me that the supplementary entry most likely referred to a minor correction and not a re-registration. He explained that as a correction, it amends the original entry rather than creating a new one, so that if I ordered a certificate using either reference number, I would almost certainly receive a copy of the same entry.

I did obtain a certificate, which showed that the officiating minister had entered the bride's surname in the register with a superfluous "e", which was not however present in his spelling of either her father's surname, or that of her sister, who was a witness. The extra "e" had not however been crossed out in the register, nor had any other amendment been made therein, but the surname had been amended in the supplementary index entry.

I didn't enquire about the assertion by FreeBMD that the page number was out of range, but looking at it now, I wonder if the number attached to the supplementary entry is not actually a page number, but when identified by the following "/S" simply leads the GRO to a different (internal) index of some kind?

Another entry that I have a copy of was for a birth, indexed as volume 3A, page 1785 Occasional Copy A. After obtaining a copy of the entry, it was apparent that on the original registration of the birth the mother, a married woman who was also the informant, gave the name of the father as a man who was not her husband, and her own surname as recorded also matched that of the man named as the father. Over four months later, she and the named father both returned to the register office, where they produced a jointly signed statutory declaration, as a result of which the entry was amended such that the name of the father was completely removed, and the mother gave her maiden surname as her current name, and her husband's surname as her former name.

Subsequently I found that the mother was still married to her husband, but at the time of conception and birth of the child, he was serving abroad in the army. The man originally named as the father had been living as a lodger in the same house as the couple prior to the husband's departure. It would seem that during her husband's absence, something got the better of them both! I can only imagine what might have been said or done on the husband's return, but he and his wife stayed together and had four more children.

After obtaining that information, I searched for the registration under the original name. The original entry is still indexed on FreeBMD, but cannot be found in the GRO online index.

I also found the following in a 2016 Lost Cousins newsletter, quoted as an explanation from GRO about the purpose of an Occasional Copy:

These are going to be instances where the original registration has been amended in some way, requiring an “occasional copy” to be sent to the Registrar General (i.e. to supersede the original Quarterly Certified Copy).

They won’t be late registrations, which would be sent in with the Quarterly Certified returns for the relevant quarter.

If a change has resulted in a re-registration of a birth, the new entry effectively supersedes the earlier one. The earlier entry remains in the index, but would have to be identified in the usual way and a copy of that earlier entry specifically ordered.

GRO would routinely issue the latest entry unless the customer specifically requests and references the earlier entry and if the earlier entry was provided, GRO would enclose a covering letter stating that this Certificate cannot be used for Official Purposes.


So I suspect that a supplementary registration is perhaps more likely to be a minor correction to something in the original entry, that does not require a re-registration. But the only way to find out what that is or was, is going to be to obtain a copy of the entry itself.

Re: Amended GRO birth record

Posted: 23 Jan 2023 10:37
by Little.auk
It's easy to forget that Jelv is referring to events in the 1960's - no computers then - BMD indexes were printed in books, amendments, cross references and late registrations all had to be added by hand.

Late registrations were usually entered twice - printed in the volume for the year and quarter that the registration took place, and hand written in the volume for the year and quarter the event took place. In my own family tree I have one extreme example of a cousin whose birth occurred in 1938, but was not registered until 1943!

Late registration of marriages is pretty well impossible, purely due to the process, but there could be corrections / amendments. I wonder if the "0465/S" is a reference to a supplementary, unpublished, "Amendments Index"

Re: Amended GRO birth record

Posted: 23 Jan 2023 11:00
by RS3100
RS3100 wrote:
22 Jan 2023 19:48
I wonder if the number attached to the supplementary entry is not actually a page number, but when identified by the following "/S" simply leads the GRO to a different (internal) index of some kind?
Little.auk wrote:
23 Jan 2023 10:37
I wonder if the "0465/S" is a reference to a supplementary, unpublished, "Amendments Index"
It seems that we are thinking along the same lines. When the /S number (in the example I gave above) was several thousand above the normal page range for the quarter, I can't think of any other explanation.