* Julian vs Gregorian calendar...

[fhtess65]

My grandfather was born in Russian occupied Poland in May of 1889, so his birth record includes double dates: born 17/29 May, baptized 25 May/6 Jun - the record has it recorded exactly like this.

The KB tells me that after using the Date Entry Assistant: "Whatever way you chose, Family Historian will then recognize the date and calendar and calculate accordingly.

I just want to be clear - if I enter the Julian date for his birth and select Julian in the DEA that it will convert it? Or show both?

I already have a note with the full translation of the record. I know I've seen some genealogists say that if the double date is used it must be entered exactly as that, however, I know date phrases are useless for reports and look, frankly, messy.

What do others do in this situation?

Thanks

[ColeValleyGirl]

The obligatory KB article (Using the Julian and Gregorian Calendars). The double date is not handled as a date phrase.

[tatewise]

Teresa, please clarify what you understand regarding Julian vs Gregorian calendar and how you are treating those dates.

What you have referred to as double dates are not how they are entered into FH.

I think those dates are giving the alternatives taking into account the 11 or so days skipped when the change occurred.

Double-dates deal with the change of the year start from March 25th to 1st January so it may not be clear whether the year is 1750 or 1751 so the year is entered as 1750/51 but that is very different from the pairs of dates you mention.

So I think you need to enter the Birth Date as 29 May 1889 and Death Date as 6 June 1889 that are the Gregorian dates.
If you need to record 17 May 1889 and 25 May 1889 as Julian dates then that needs another Fact or Notes.

Record the pairs of dates in the Text From Source transcript of the Source Citation.

[fhtess65]

Mike,

Long after the British changed to the Gregorian calendar, the Russian Empire was still using it, hence my question, so the dates for my grandfather's birth in his Polish birth/baptismal record (they are one and the same) appear with both dates:

Birth: 17th/29th of May of the present year

Baptism: 25th of May/6th of June, 1889

However, I take your point - I will likely use the Gregorian dates and include a note indicating that under the Julian calendar in his place of birth and baptism, they were recorded with both the Julian and Gregorian ones.

[fhtess65]

The obligatory KB article (Using the Julian and Gregorian Calendars). The double date is not handled as a date phrase.

Helen,

This is what I found in this KB article - https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/histo ... e-formats/

"If you enter 24 Mar 1701/2 in Family Historian you will be prompted to save the entry as a Date Phrase. It will appear as “24 Mar 1701/2” and will be useless for purposes of calculations etc. as Family Historian will not recognize it as a date. It is therefore important that the date is entered in the format 24 Mar 1701/02."

Apparently I found the wrong article - I will take a look at the one you included for me.

Thanks

Teresa (whose Polish ancestors create all kinds of issues her English ones don't)

[ColeValleyGirl]

Teresa, that warning is about missing the leading digit in the second year. It could be clearer.

[AdrianBruce]

Just by coincidence, I was reading an article in Wikipedia today (about Russian Battlecruisers if you must know) that used dates of the style that Teresa refers to. I think I'd seen it before but Wikipedia and Teresa illustrate that "double dating" can mean at least two things. Firstly, the English practice of just double dating the year (e.g. 1 February 1710/11) and secondly the practice followed under Russian influences (at least - any more?) where the entire date can be doubled, e.g. "25th of May/6th of June, 1889". (Presumably, at the appropriate part of the year, the year doubles as well?).

It occurred to me that in English practice we never worry about transforming the dd-mm part between calendars - only the year. Though, IIRC, George Washington (at least) altered his birthdate to change the dd-mm to the new calendar. One wonders if anything else gets altered anywhere...

[tatewise]

the English practice of just double dating the year

I don't think it is uniquely an English practice as it is in the GEDCOM specification that has US roots!

[AdrianBruce]

...
I don't think it is uniquely an English practice as it is in the GEDCOM specification that has US roots!

True - I suspect I was thinking English language - or that's my excuse....

[Gowermick]

Miketate, don’t forget, that when the gregorian calendar was adopted by Engalnd, it applied to US at the same time, as they were then still an English colony
It was the act of parliament that formally changed our calendar from Julian to Gregorian, that also changed the beginning of the year to January 1st. - doubly confusing for most people.

I understand that some churches have never adopted the Gregorian calendar and stick to the Julian calendar, which may be why the baptism was quoted using two dates, one religious date and the other an official (i.e.civil) date

[fhtess65]

Thanks for adding this This form of double dating is common through many of the records I deal with for my Polish ancestors.

Teresa

Just by coincidence, I was reading an article in Wikipedia today (about Russian Battlecruisers if you must know) that used dates of the style that Teresa refers to. I think I'd seen it before but Wikipedia and Teresa illustrate that "double dating" can mean at least two things. Firstly, the English practice of just double dating the year (e.g. 1 February 1710/11) and secondly the practice followed under Russian influences (at least - any more?) where the entire date can be doubled, e.g. "25th of May/6th of June, 1889". (Presumably, at the appropriate part of the year, the year doubles as well?).

[fhtess65]

Ah, ok, that makes sense. But yes, it could be clearer...

Teresa, that warning is about missing the leading digit in the second year. It could be clearer.

[ColeValleyGirl]

Ah, ok, that makes sense. But yes, it could be clearer...

I've changed it around a bit and hopefully improved it.

A favour? When you've worked out how best to handle those Russian type dates, can you post details in Maintaining the KnowledgeBase and I'll update the relevant articles to cover them...

[fhtess65]

Thanks for clarifying, and yes, I will do so...it's extremely tricky and I realize now I might need to convert the DoB for those whose records don't reflect both dates...another project to add to my list!!

I've changed it around a bit and hopefully improved it.

A favour? When you've worked out how best to handle those Russian type dates, can you post details in Maintaining the KnowledgeBase and I'll update the relevant articles to cover them...

[AdrianBruce]

For anyone (like me) who's never had to think about how to do the conversion between Julian and Gregorian calendars, the table on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian ... ndar_dates might help. Just add to that, the Microsoft Calculator in Date Calculation mode and you're away - your operating system may vary, of course...

[fhtess65]

Thanks, Adrian - very useful link

T

For anyone (like me) who's never had to think about how to do the conversion between Julian and Gregorian calendars, the table on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian ... ndar_dates might help. Just add to that, the Microsoft Calculator in Date Calculation mode and you're away - your operating system may vary, of course...