* Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by davidf » 20 Sep 2022 15:09

tatewise wrote:
20 Sep 2022 09:32
The first step is to reduce the number of Place records so there is only one Place record per location.
Well, is it?

A point on the globe can have multiple names changing through history (eg. Early Canadian provinces, or Holy Roman Empire to current Germany) but also sometimes at the same time (Derry City, and Londonderry City). They may have constant names at one level in the hierarchy, but other levels may vary - often with highly political overtones. In which "state" have we found Dublin City and how has that state been defined/named through say 1912 to 1949 (and by whom)?

On the face of the property box or diagram or report what do you want to show? You may want considerable variation to reflect either official usage at the time the record of the event was made ("strict transcription") or the perspective of the "reporter" (letter writer for instance) at the time.

But for geo-coding you need a name that is standardised to a form that the specific geo-coder can understand (which may be different to modern usage - e.g. previous posts about NYC, NY, USA etc.)

Pity the "standard" does not allow "Standard Modern Place Name" and "Standard Geo-code Place Name" - or is there a descriptor field somewhere in the GEDCOM spec that allows that?
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by Gowermick » 20 Sep 2022 15:14

davidf wrote:
20 Sep 2022 15:09
But for geo-coding you need a name that is standardised to a form that the specific geo-coder can understand (which may be different to modern usage - e.g. previous posts about NYC, NY, USA etc.)
Not strictly true, as that only applies to automatic geo-coding. You can geo-code anything, even Donald Duck, if you do it manually by dropping the name on the map😀
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 20 Sep 2022 15:27

davidf wrote:
20 Sep 2022 15:09
tatewise wrote:
20 Sep 2022 09:32
The first step is to reduce the number of Place records so there is only one Place record per location.
Well, is it?
I certainly don't have one Place record per location, for precisely that reason -- names change over time and I record the Place as stated on the relevant source, not the modern equivalent (which goes in the Standardized field and is used for geocoding).

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by tatewise » 20 Sep 2022 17:38

I deliberately did not say a 'point on the globe' and by 'location' meant the name of a place as illustrated by my example that gave two location place names for what is probably the same point on the globe for Sudbury, Middlesex, ....
The OP has lots of records with various connotations of Place record names for essentially the same place.
I am trying to convey the need to merge them into much fewer Place records before worrying too much about geocoding.
That is especially relevant as the FH geocoder does not yield the same Lat/long for those variant place names.
Does anyone disagree with that advice?
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by tparkhill » 20 Sep 2022 17:44

Thanks again. That was the sense I was getting:
1) reduce (and clean up) number of versions of places by Merge in Place List
2) perhaps keep old Place names, but put new place name in the "Standardize . . " field
3) Find out how to turn off Geocoding in FH.
4) Geocode
5) figure out how to export the facts with the correct lat/long; so I don't have to trust Geocoding in Google as I move data to Google Earth Pro (so I can view on top of historic maps)

On Geocode with Map Life Facts Plugin: as implied, a LOT to read and digest (with power comes complexity), but I have a couple of very big picture questions before I start:

1) the wording on the plugin suggests goal is to plot Google Maps (not what I want to do), but I get the impression that one can also use this plugin to get Correct Lat/Longs into FH, is that correct?

a) what was a little fuzzy in my first reading, is storage. It looks like perhaps there are many options for storage. I am assuming I want to just store the lat/long in the "normal" FH lat/long fields for each Place. Does the plugin do this as an option? or does it store locations external to FH, and I then do another step to get the locations back into FH?

2) looks like one pays for API, and does a Geocode first of all locations? (unless you run out for day, then you pause the operation)

3) then, it looks like there is a feature that allows one to check each geocoding , I assume this is one at a time?

4) and perhaps during the check, one can move the symbol if needed, and the system then stores the corrected Lat/long? and does the corrected get stored to FH?

5) I see there is option to select a region to improve accuracy. I have many US, many UK, and many Europe HRE locations. so seems like I should somehow Geocode by these groups with regions set, If this is possible, is it clear how to separate and Geocode each batch?

6) Before I use the plugin, do I need to delete the existing lat/longs? or does the plugin ignore them and write over them?
a) if I need to delete all the existing lat/longs, is there and easy way?

Thanks again.
Trent

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by Ron Melby » 20 Sep 2022 17:56

you do not actually pay for the api. small users, and believe you me, even if you got 10k places and you run it every other day for a month, it doesn't make the bar.
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by tatewise » 20 Sep 2022 18:01

tparkhill wrote:
20 Sep 2022 17:44
Thanks again. That was the sense I was getting:
1) reduce (and clean up) number of versions of places by Merge in Place List
2) perhaps keep old Place names, but put new place name in the "Standardize . . " field
3) Find out how to turn off Geocoding in FH.
4) Geocode
5) figure out how to export the facts with the correct lat/long; so I don't have to trust Geocoding in Google as I move data to Google Earth Pro (so I can view on top of historic maps)
That is essentially correct.
On Geocode with Map Life Facts Plugin: as implied, a LOT to read and digest (with power comes complexity), but I have a couple of very big picture questions before I start:

1) the wording on the plugin suggests goal is to plot Google Maps (not what I want to do), but I get the impression that one can also use this plugin to get Correct Lat/Longs into FH, is that correct?
The plugin uses the Google Maps API to geocode Lat/Longs that can be saved in FH. They can be plotted on various maps.
a) what was a little fuzzy in my first reading, is storage. It looks like perhaps there are many options for storage. I am assuming I want to just store the lat/long in the "normal" FH lat/long fields for each Place. Does the plugin do this as an option? or does it store locations external to FH, and I then do another step to get the locations back into FH?
Yes, there is an option to save the Lat/Long directly in the FH Place records.
2) looks like one pays for API, and does a Geocode first of all locations? (unless you run out for day, then you pause the operation)
By setting the recommended Google Maps API quota limits you will never be charged.
3) then, it looks like there is a feature that allows one to check each geocoding , I assume this is one at a time?
If you mean manually adjust the Lat/Long then yes that is one at a time either in the Plugin or the FH Map Window.
4) and perhaps during the check, one can move the symbol if needed, and the system then stores the corrected Lat/long? and does the corrected get stored to FH?
Yes.
5) I see there is option to select a region to improve accuracy. I have many US, many UK, and many Europe HRE locations. so seems like I should somehow Geocode by these groups with regions set, If this is possible, is it clear how to separate and Geocode each batch?
The region option should not be significant if you define the Country in each Place record name.
It is only helpful when some Places do not automatically geocode correctly.
6) Before I use the plugin, do I need to delete the existing lat/longs? or does the plugin ignore them and write over them?
a) if I need to delete all the existing lat/longs, is there and easy way?
You can choose in the Plugin which Lat/Longs get updated depending on their status.
If necessary there is a very easy way to delete all Lat/Long or any subset of Lat/Long in FH.
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 20 Sep 2022 20:11

Mike, if two of us misunderstood what you were saying, it was worth getting clarification.

To me, a location *is* a unique point or area on the globe and a Place record is a descriptor for that location at some period in time. Whereas you say a location is the name of a place?

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by tparkhill » 23 Sep 2022 15:04

Thanks again.
One last "Sovereign State" vs. "Country" question. In reading some postings, I get the sense that most people leave out "UK" after England, etc. I assume that is best practice and Geocodes well for the UK? or when I clean up, should I add UK?

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by tatewise » 23 Sep 2022 15:21

You seem to have a Town, County, State, Country Place name format that works well for USA.
The options for the UK that fit that format are:
Town, County, England,
Town, County, England, UK
Town, County, , England
Town, County, , UK

Substitute England with Scotland, Wales, etc, where necessary.

They all geocode exactly the same in the Map Life Facts plugin but the FH geocoder sometimes is not so consistent.

It really depends on which you consider is the best fit for your Place name format
Mike Tate ~ researching the Tate and Scott family history ~ tatewise ancestry

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by AdrianBruce » 23 Sep 2022 16:21

tparkhill wrote:
23 Sep 2022 15:04
... I get the sense that most people leave out "UK" after England, etc. I assume that is best practice ...
I would certainly contend that it's normal practice. Basically, you don't gain anything, I'd contend, by adding in "UK", etc.

Bear in mind that if you do use "UK" as a terminal name from 1801 onwards, then you should, to be consistent, use "Great Britain" as the terminal name for places in England, Wales and Scotland from 1707 to 1800 and just leave England, Wales and Scotland as the terminal names prior to that. (Any lawyers wishing to discuss the correct name for Wales are directed to another place - please!!!). That sort of messing about is one good reason why most of us just finish the place-names with Scotland, etc.
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 23 Sep 2022 16:33

And let us not get into places that move between the countries... Think Berwick and Berwickshire. Or Sir Fynwy.

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by davidf » 23 Sep 2022 16:43

Hence why
the "Place" should be as on the Source
and
the "standardised place" is as of now?
(and just hope your place is not in Eastern Ukraine! but there will be a plug-in for that sort of issue!)
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by davidf » 23 Sep 2022 16:58

Presumably though there must be examples where you have "two points on the globe" with identical transcribed name, but different standardised places?

So if the source just says "Farnham", but because of other information (such as a reference to "Castle Street"), you believe you can enter "Farnham, Surrey, England" as the standardised place, what do you do when another source also says "Farnham", but because of a reference to "Stang Lane" you believe that this Farnham is "Farnham, Nr Knaresborough, North Yorkshire"?

Place has to be unique; so what do you do? If certain that they are different places I might add ", [Surrey]" and ", [North Yorks]" to the place names using the square brackets as sort of editorial parentheses or box brackets.

What would others do?
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 23 Sep 2022 17:38

davidf wrote:
23 Sep 2022 16:58


What would others do?
I haven't found a better way. It isn't a problem on my main website, because every fact is shown on a map for the individual, but on the cousin-bait sites such as Ancestry, there has to be some means of disambiguation. If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it.

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by AdrianBruce » 23 Sep 2022 18:03

davidf wrote:
23 Sep 2022 16:58
... If certain that they are different places I might add ", [Surrey]" and ", [North Yorks]" to the place names using the square brackets as sort of editorial parentheses or box brackets. ...
I'm concerned that I've misunderstood you. If the source just says "Farnham" but there's a reference to "Stang Lane", then I'd enter the event into FH with a Place-name of "Farnham, Nr Knaresborough, North Yorkshire, England". Not "Farnham". (In fact, wouldn't "Farnham, North Yorkshire, England" suffice?)

The standardised place on the place-records is something else again, and in those cases I might not even enter it. Have I missed your point?

If there are two places with the same name in the same county, then I fiddle things, to use the technical term. For instance, Cheshire has two (at least) places named Weston. I usually enter them as (say) "Weston (near Wybunbury), Cheshire, England" and "Weston (near Runcorn), Cheshire, England".
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by davidf » 23 Sep 2022 19:21

AdrianBruce wrote:
23 Sep 2022 18:03
I'm concerned that I've misunderstood you. If the source just says "Farnham" but there's a reference to "Stang Lane", then I'd enter the event into FH with a Place-name of "Farnham, Nr Knaresborough, North Yorkshire, England". Not "Farnham". (In fact, wouldn't "Farnham, North Yorkshire, England" suffice?)
Well my thoughts are evolving! But they are evolving towards recording events as described at the time and use notes and facilities like Standardised Places as a means to apply contemporary order.

The Farnham example is not politically contentious, but where it is how the name of a point on the globe was described can be important and I am not totally sure that I want to relegate that to "text from source" (which is an alternative strategy).

I guess I am trying to get a clearer line between actual evidence "Abode is Farnham" and derived evidence - "North Yorkshire" does not appear on the document - and would probably have been North Riding - or is Knaresborough that bit of the West Riding that ended up in North Yorkshire?

(I am currently having a fight with Find My Past where I have reported that a derived date of birth is wrong - yet they say they have checked the transcription - which gives the age (which they have corrected following a previous error report). They are also insisting that a derived county of Somerset is correct for a Probate Calendar entry which refers to Tunbridge Wells)
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by AdrianBruce » 23 Sep 2022 20:56

davidf wrote:
23 Sep 2022 19:21
... how the name of a point on the globe was described can be important and I am not totally sure that I want to relegate that to "text from source" (which is an alternative strategy).

I guess I am trying to get a clearer line between actual evidence "Abode is Farnham" and derived evidence - "North Yorkshire" does not appear on the document - and would probably have been North Riding - or is Knaresborough that bit of the West Riding that ended up in North Yorkshire? ...
Personally, I have relegated the name / description in the source to "text from source". I have too many issues appearing in my mind now (not necessarily when I made my decision) to contemplate differently.

Firstly, philosophically, for me the events, attributes, etc, stored in FH, ought to be fit for output now in (usually narrative) reports, etc., if someone asks for such. I take on all the strictures about the unnatural nature of generated text, etc. But I don't have time to concoct "proper" narratives that will be out of date potentially as soon as they are produced. In the case of a placename - suppose the source says that someone was born in Widnes in abt 1860. The derived evidence might be that (1) their birth was registered in Prescot Registration District and (2) Prescot RD was then entirely within Lancashire. My birth event would be that they were born in abt 1860, Widnes, Lancashire, England. The text from source would say "Widnes". I would almost certainly also have the FreeBMD index cited as a source for their birth. In all honesty, I probably wouldn't bother citing https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/prescot.html - counts as a "well known fact". The Place Record for Widnes, Lancashire, England would have a Standardised Place name of Widnes, something-or-other, England. (Not sure what that middle element would be - Halton maybe? I suspect just Widnes, England would geocode quite happily).

Why else would my entered value consist of both quoted and derived information? Well, I have in mind the example of a retired Colonel who died, presumably while taking the waters, at Neuenahr in Prussia in the 1880s. (Not my blood relative - it appears that others have a better class of relly than I! ;) ) Although it's not the case here, I could well have found that I had both German and English language sources for that death and, short of recording multiple deaths for him, I have to make a decision between writing the English ("Prussia, Germany") or German ("Preussen, Deutschland") - and in my theoretical case, both forms are in the sources for the same event. I can't (in my mind) be precious about this, I have to make a choice, which will not, in this theoretical case, match one of the sources. This example says to me that there will always be instances where text from source and recorded event data don't match.

So yes, I think that there are issues over how to record quoted and derived bits in place-names, but for me they pall before just getting a place-name immediately meaningful (Great-grandad was born at Poole but it would be silly of me to ever record his birthplace as "Poole" because it's "Poole outside Nantwich, Cheshire" not "Poole, Dorset" - yes, we could both envisage more comprehensive versions of GEDCOM and the software but....)
Adrian

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by davidf » 24 Sep 2022 11:42

AdrianBruce wrote:
23 Sep 2022 20:56
Firstly, philosophically, for me the events, attributes, etc, stored in FH, ought to be fit for output now in (usually narrative) reports, etc., if someone asks for such. I take on all the strictures about the unnatural nature of generated text, etc. But I don't have time to concoct "proper" narratives that will be out of date potentially as soon as they are produced.
That is where my usage of FH differs from you. I use FH as a repository of evidence (?) that I have acquired over time whilst researching different people and going through different sources which I then draw on when writing (word processor style). When I come to write, "the evidence" at that time may appear contradictory, so I try (evolving practice) to be careful to make very clear what the evidence said (Abode: Farnham), what I presumed from the evidence when I first came across it (Farnham, Surrey) and what I might now believe at the time of writing. I am finding this particularly important when using an index or transcript as a proxy-source. In Find My Past it is all too easy to click the "copy to clipboard" button and then paste into "Text from source" and then lift relevant details into the appropriate facts. It is not unknown for such indices to carry derived information (derived dates of birth, counties etc.) which is plain wrong - as can been seen by examining an image of the actual document.

(Whether something is soon out of date or not is independent of your approach of inputting "fit for output" or mine of "resolution at time of writing").
AdrianBruce wrote:
23 Sep 2022 20:56
there will always be instances where text from source and recorded event data don't match.
I fear that you are right - but not just from a language point of view. (My preference is to translate all names into the English form at the time (e.g. "Dacca, Bengal, India") for the Fact and to have the current ("Dhaka, (Dhaka Division), Bangladesh") in the standardised place - possibly with "Dhaka Division" left out for the same reasons that I do not record Oxford, Oxfordshire - although for analysis purposes perhaps I should record all three elements where available)

My preference for English is purely because that is the working language of both myself and (nearly) all my potential readers. Do the V7 language packs have a role in translating place names and occupations etc.?

If you lived in Dublin in the early 20th century, how your place was described - officially and (by you where you had the option) can be very telling. "Southern Ireland" or "Irish Republic" or "Republic of Ireland" was very important to many (and there was also "Ireland", "Eire" and "Irish Free State" to negotiate).

Given the restrictions of GEDCOM, I might end up putting two birth facts with the same date, but with different names (from different sources) for the same place (which may both share the modern standardised name of "Dublin, County Dublin, Republic of Ireland"). Should I go "4 part places" to include the province or concatenate the province into the second part - Dublin, County Dublin (Leinster), Republic of Ireland? It is easier to drop the province except where unavoidable). When I get to writing I then chose which is the most appropriate for the document I am writing.

It's messy but in the end all curation type exercises are messy to a degree?
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 24 Sep 2022 12:10

As an author and occasional teacher of writing, I'm never going to rely on machine-generated sentences, so FH is a repository of my assertions (current beliefs).

I publish the fact details on my website (fact, date, age, place, address, attribute if relevant, note) and hand craft narratives where they're required -- either where there's conflicting evidence that isn't easy to reconcile, in which case I write a proof statement to support my assertion, or where there's a particularly interesting narrative to be constructed for a blog post, such as for my bigamous grandfather who was apparently allergic to the Army.

I record places as they were recorded in the relevant source(s) -- if there's a conflict, I write a proof statement to clarify my conclusion process; and if one source is more detailed than another but doesn't conflict, I use the more detailed version.

If the place name in a source is not in English, I use the name from the source. In my tree, this is most likely to be in Welsh if it isn't in English -- so if something says Casnewydd Bach, that's what I will record. Google will find it... If I had any ancestors from Moscow, I'd record Москва, and Google would find that as well. Like David, I might vary this when I'm hand crafting text.

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by AdrianBruce » 24 Sep 2022 12:38

Thanks David and Helen.

As a supplement to what I wrote, I should say that if there is any interpretation needed for the place-name from the source, then I will indeed record that. Perhaps in the notes for the event / attribute if it's a really serious debate that I want to bring to the attention of my readers. Perhaps just in the citation notes (drawing on the text-from-source) if it's just a simple deduction.

I suspect we're pretty much in agreement about what we do - we differ in where we document it, for pragmatic reasons.

Helen - interesting what you say about writing "Москва". I confess I have a rooted objection to rendering stuff in Cyrillic, which is derived from my attempting to read an otherwise hugely interesting book about European history where the publisher got precious enough to use Cyrillic names on the maps. Frankly, I have enough problems trying to connect Lemberg with Lviv without someone writing it on the map as Львів. Maps should not be an intellectual exercise in themselves, they should illuminate the text. And worst case scenario is that the Cyrillic is ambiguous - I knew that the chapter heading CCCP meant USSR because I once collected stamps. But without any clue what font was being used, the reader wouldn't know whether this was CCCP in Roman letters, or CCCP in Cyrillic, which is SSSR in a Roman rendering of Russian, which is USSR in a Roman rendering of English.

That book was not an exercise in clarity....
Adrian

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 24 Sep 2022 12:58

Yeah, Moscow/Москва (and similar) are challenges. If Львів is intended to demonstrate superiority (look how clever I am! ) or gets in the way of understanding, it's not the right thing to do. But most online maps will render it as both Lviv and Львів these days (no help when you're reading a book, I know). I'd probably put Moscow in a blog/proof statement, but FH is my repository of what was recorded.

Not touching USSR/CCCP/stamp collecting :D

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by tatewise » 24 Sep 2022 14:06

David, if you have two different places and they are both named "Farnham" then you can create two Place records with a little imagination because FH allows space characters and symbols to differentiate names. So you can have:
Farnham
Farnham,
Farnham ,
Farnham ,
Farnham;
etc...
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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by ColeValleyGirl » 24 Sep 2022 14:12

Relying on the position of spaces commas and other punctuation, and expecting others to understand your conventions is madness.

IMO;!, ,

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Re: Mapping - existing, Map Facts, and Google Earth

Post by davidf » 24 Sep 2022 15:02

ColeValleyGirl wrote:
24 Sep 2022 14:12
Relying on the position of spaces commas and other punctuation, and expecting others to understand your conventions is madness.

IMO;!, ,
I think Mike must have been writing tongue in cheek!

I would prefer to differentiate by means of box bracketed comments which to many is an indication of a present-day edit:

Farnham [, Surrey, England]
etc.

As for foreign languages and scripts I tend to write what would work for my expected readers. So some Welsh Place names in Welsh, but probably not for instance "Caerdydd" unless that is what was in the source and was important to the narrative. ("Caerdydd" is probably borderline because it is in a predominantly English speaking part of Wales, but it is easily transliterated and translated with a little knowledge.)

Hanover vs Hannover? Go local - little difference
München or Minga vs Munich? - Probably not Minga, but otherwise depends on context (e.g. WW2 or Football?)
Αθήνα or Athína or Athens - Probably Athens or the Romanized Athína if justified by the context; I'm not sure I would ever write Αθήνα - it would block understanding for English readers
Black Hole of Kolkata or Black Hole of Calcutta? I think the former looks silly, but I might write "Black Hole of Calcutta (in modern day Kolkata)" if necessary
David
Running FH 6.2.7. Under Wine on Linux (Ubuntu 22.04 LTS + LXDE 11)

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