* sentences: my lack of Englisch?

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Kaaskop
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sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by Kaaskop »

I'm trying to understand how the sentences work in FH. I used for this example the FH sample project and run the Individual Narrative Report of

Peter Michael Munro (1920-1990)
He witnessed the marriage of Anthony Edward Munro and Julia Amanda Fish He was a Witness at Birth of Anthony Munro Hodges on 2 January 1970 in Cheltenham. He died in 1990 in Winchester, Hampshire, England.

I did add him as a witness of the birth Anthony Munro Hodges and expected to see the following:

He witnessed the marriage of Anthony Edward Munro and Julia Amanda Fish He witnessed the birth of Anthony Munro Hodges on 2 January 1970 in Cheltenham. He died in 1990 in Winchester, Hampshire, England.

I don't understand why the "W" and "B" are a capital? Shouldn't it be "the birth"?
And why "He was a Witness at Birth" instead of "He witnessed the birth"?
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by tatewise »

I suspect you added the person to the Birth event and chose Role: Witness but have not added a Role Sentence Template definition to the Birth event. That process is explained below. It is similar to the TMG Tools > Master Tag Type List and its Roles and Sentences tab.

Use Tools > Fact Types..., select the Birth event and click Edit... to open the Fact Definition.
You should see Witness Roles: includes Witness so click the Roles... button.
Select Witness and click Edit... to see the Role Sentence Template.
That is the default created when you added the person as a Witness.
{role name} is the Role you chose Witness and {label} is the name of the Birth event. That is where the W and B come from.
The sentence can be customised to say whatever you like.

See the Marriage event, and investigate the Witness Role: of Witness to see its Role Sentence Template definition and use that as the basis of your new Witness at birth sentence.

Click the Help button in each dialogue for more details.
Also, see FHUG Knowledge Base Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates.

When managing new facts and new witnesses, it is better to start with the Tools > Fact Types... definitions before adding those new facts and new witnesses.
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by Kaaskop »

Thanks again Mike!

When I opened Fact types , Birth or baptism I saw the codes and assumed they were already customized or seems it that way after TMG import?
So I followed your steps and the result was good.
I would expect to see in a report from the principal that the witness is mentioned, but he isn't. Is that correct?
I tried a couple of things in the sample project, direct import from TMG and via Gedcom. I assumed that the codes in TMG were causing the confusion, but i don't see much difference. In one report i saw different texts for witnesses at the same baptism and when I used Dutch as language one of them was translated but the other was still in English. After some trial and error they wer both the same (and good) but I have ni idea what I have done.

"When managing new facts and new witnesses, it is better to start with the Tools > Fact Types... definitions before adding those new facts and new witnesses." Do you mean that after import from TMG (direct or via Gedcom) changes in the Fact Types sentences don't overrule the already imported records?
I don't have many witness relations defined so I can do it manually, the difficulty for me is that the "Help" function gives detailed help but i miss the overview, the structure how things interact.
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by tatewise »

Narrative Sentence customisation is an advanced feature that needs some time and practice to understand.
It is further complicated when dealing with imports from another product like TMG and foreign-language features.

When I opened Fact types, Birth or baptism I saw the codes and assumed they were already customized or seems it that way after TMG import?
How the Birth or Baptism sentence codes are customised depends on what has happened beforehand.
An import using a TMG GEDCOM has no effect on any Sentence customisations.
A direct import from TMG creates a TMG Import Fact Set that by default only applies to that imported Project, but optionally can apply to all Projects. In Tools > Fact Types... investigate the Fact Set names.
In the FH Sample Project where you experimented, there probably is no TMG Import Fact Set, so the Witness sentence may have been created by default when the witness person was added to the event.
In your imported TMG Project the sentence customisation will depend on the TMG Import Fact Set.

I would expect to see in a report from the principal that the witness is mentioned, but he isn't. Is that correct?
Yes, currently, each fact can only generate one sentence per person in a report. So the principal shows the principal fact sentence and each witness shows the witness role sentence.

I tried a couple of things in the sample project, direct import from TMG and via Gedcom. I assumed that the codes in TMG were causing the confusion, but I don't see much difference. In one report I saw different texts for witnesses at the same baptism and when I used Dutch as language one of them was translated but the other was still in English. After some trial and error they were both the same (and good) but I have no idea what I have done.
In addition to the Tools > Fact Types... global default sentence definitions, each fact can customise its specific sentence, so that might explain the different text for witnesses at the same baptism.
Language is another advanced feature governed by many factors. When you direct import from TMG there is a Languages option. Also, Tools > Preferences > International has Language options. A discussion of language features needs another posting topic as it affects many FH features.

"When managing new facts and new witnesses, it is better to start with the Tools > Fact Types... definitions before adding those new facts and new witnesses." Do you mean that after import from TMG (direct or via Gedcom) changes in the Fact Types sentences don't overrule the already imported records?
See the explanation above regarding the way each Project can be affected by different Fact Sets.

I don't have many witness relations defined so I can do it manually, the difficulty for me is that the "Help" function gives detailed help but I miss the overview, and the structure of how things interact.
Did the Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates article help?
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by Kaaskop »

"Did the Narrative Report Fact Sentence Templates article help?"
In detail, yes . The bigger picture less (I do realize it wil take time to get used to it, this wasn't also my strongest point with TMG).
See the next two sentences, everything in red is not clear to me:

Sentence Templates can be found in various dialogues to define either default fact sentences or specific fact sentences.
These Sentence Templates definitions are applied by default to all Facts

various: is it always the same sentence template? I have the feeling every time working with something else als described before. Different sentences for the same witness event.
default <> specific: I find it difficult to understand how something specific can bij default applied to something else
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by tatewise »

Let me try and explain...

The Introduction says:
"These specify the wording for facts in Narrative Reports and elsewhere. They are defined in the Tools > Fact Types dialogues, as documented at Fact Definition Dialog. They can also be defined for specific Facts in the Property Box Dialogue Facts tab by editing the Sentence field."

We have only been discussing the Tools > Fact Types dialogues that set the global defaults for each type of Fact.
In the Property Box, on the Facts tab, there is a Sentence box at the bottom that uses the global default, but it can be customised to define a local specific Sentence Template for just that single Fact and overrides the global default.

Finding Sentence Templates says:
"Sentence Templates can be found in various dialogues to define either default fact sentences or specific fact sentences."

The subsequent two sections describe Default Fact Definitions and Specific Fact Sentences.
Default Fact Definitions describes using the Tools > Fact Types... global defaults dialogues.
Specific Fact Sentences describes using the Property Box, Facts tab, Sentence box override.
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by Kaaskop »

With your help I managed to change sentences (templates) were needed.
With testing I was confronted with a problem I don't understand and can't find how to solve it.
In the Individual Narrative report, in Dutch, the role of the witness is good translated as "Zij was getuige bij de doop van..."
NL Schermafbeelding 2022-06-28 131928.jpg
NL Schermafbeelding 2022-06-28 131928.jpg (21.39 KiB) Viewed 1381 times
English:
NL Schermafbeelding 2022-06-28 132144.jpg
NL Schermafbeelding 2022-06-28 132144.jpg (26.39 KiB) Viewed 1381 times
But in the Descendant Outline report that sentence is not translated:
NL2 Schermafbeelding 2022-06-28 132354.jpg
NL2 Schermafbeelding 2022-06-28 132354.jpg (28.42 KiB) Viewed 1381 times
The only difference I see is the use of the name of the witness or the use of "She".
I can't find were to change this.
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by tatewise »

I have tried to repeat your reported symptoms but cannot get "witnessed the baptism of" translated in any Report using any Language Pack. The prefix of She/Zij or her Name does not matter.
I cannot get "was getuige bij de doop van" to appear in any Reports, so I do not understand how you got that.
[EDIT]
It seems "was getuige bij de doop van" is the translation of "was witness at the baptism of" rather than "witnessed the baptism of"?

If you use the Refresh Report button on the right, does it still translate to Dutch or does it become English?

Does the Baptism Witness Role Sentence Template still say: {individual} witnessed the baptism of {principal} {date} {place}

I can explain why none of the Language Packs translate "witnessed the baptism of".
None of them have translations for the words "witnessed" or "baptism" with lower case "b".
So I don't understand how you got the Dutch translation in the Narrative Report. It should not be possible.

It is quite easy to edit the Dutch Translation Pack to cope with the words "witnessed" and "baptism".
Would you like me to explain how to do that?
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by Kaaskop »

Due to a new import to run plugin v 0.7 there is an other sentence that is not translated, I will show you.
A few days ago I translated some sentences myself as a exercise. Could FH remembered that?
Ind Narrative.jpg
Ind Narrative.jpg (53.51 KiB) Viewed 1336 times
Klaas in the role of witness isn't translated but his wife Elisabeth in the same rol and the same baptism Elisabeth is in Dutch.

The log file from the import consist only one record, i think that's pretty good, this baptism is involved:
log file.jpg
log file.jpg (45.06 KiB) Viewed 1336 times

Fact definition.jpg
Fact definition.jpg (101.2 KiB) Viewed 1336 times
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by Kaaskop »

I couldn't add more screenshots (is there a maximum of three?)
Edit Role lang.jpg
Edit Role lang.jpg (38.64 KiB) Viewed 1334 times
Property Box.jpg
Property Box.jpg (56.16 KiB) Viewed 1334 times
With the code:
Property Box code.jpg
Property Box code.jpg (109.04 KiB) Viewed 1334 times
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by Kaaskop »

His wife Elisabeth with code:
Property Box code Elisabeth.jpg
Property Box code Elisabeth.jpg (116.5 KiB) Viewed 1332 times
This is the Descendant Outline report:
Descendant Outline.jpg
Descendant Outline.jpg (54.87 KiB) Viewed 1332 times
I thought that in the Fact Type definition I could make a standard translation and in the main tab of the Property Box override the that standard if I wish.

Somewhere there is a sentence "...witnessed the baptism..." it should be possible to translate, but where?
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by tatewise »

Yes, these postings are limited to a maximum of 3 attachments.

Language translation is quite complicated and is controlled by several custom settings.
There also appear to be some faults that need reporting to CP.

The Tools > Fact Types... entry for Language Variant applies to sentences in narrative style reports.
That is working correctly in Narrative Reports for the Role Sentence Templates.
Outline Ancestor/Descendant Reports also use narrative sentences in some cases, but the Language Variant is not always applied. That is a fault that needs reporting to CP.

If the Property Box Facts tab Sentence box is edited then that specific template should be used in narrative style reports, but it is not used anywhere. That is a fault that needs reporting to CP.
[EDIT: After reinstalling FH V7.0.11 the fault was corrected. Now the circumstances of how it arose are difficult to recreate.]

The way to specify translations not handled elsewhere is in the Language Packs.
Use Tools > Language Packs... and select your Dutch Language Pack then click Edit...
Click New... and enter the Translate From: and Translate To: words and click Create.

EditTranslation.png
EditTranslation.png (45.2 KiB) Viewed 1313 times
Last edited by tatewise on 28 Jun 2022 21:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: EDIT added regarding specific fact template problem
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by Kaaskop »

If I take the language variant code from Fact Type, Edit Role and insert it the Property Box Facts tab Sentence box, it seems to work fine in the narrative:
narrative after correction.jpg
narrative after correction.jpg (31.34 KiB) Viewed 1293 times
And if I edit the Property Box Facts tab Sentence box, then that is specific template used in the Individual narrative, so that's correct. Or do you mean something else?
sentence box.jpg
sentence box.jpg (27.35 KiB) Viewed 1293 times
It is not used the Descendant Outline report.

I found the language packs and looked at them before but wasn't aware that by New you can also translate sentences and not just words.
If I use your example the Descent Outline report is also good translated.
So my question is now when do you translate in the language pack and when do you use the "Fact Types, Fact Definition Go To Language Variant..."?
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by tatewise »

I'm sorry but I do not know the answer to your last question.

Ask CP whether the missing translations for Fact Types, Fact Definition Go To Language Variant... are a fault or intended.
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Re: sentences: my lack of Englisch?

Post by Kaaskop »

Thank you very much!

I have made a support ticket and explained as good as I can what the possible problem with translation is.
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