* Surname prefix (SPFX) -- more generally, handling structured names.

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Surname prefix (SPFX) -- more generally, handling structured names.

Post by Kaaskop »

I'm still a TMG user but looking for a new program.
I have been looking at FH 7.0.11 and I find it very promising. Almost no problems with the import of the TMG project, for me very intuitive and it has enough speed.
FH recognize the names in my project very well but can't handle the different parts. Specially in the Dutch language the handling of the separate surname prefix (SPFX) is important.
I know the Gedcom specification gives the possibility to use only the Name tag as FH does, but the specification contains also the structured tags for handling the Name part.
If FH could incorporate the handling of the structured name tags, I buy the program and I'm sure with me many more TMG users.

Thanks,
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

Welcome to the FHUG.

I have moved this posting to the FH General Usage forum because a New Wish List Request is not necessary.

FH supports all the GEDCOM Name structured fields, including SPFX, but because it focuses on the GEDCOM option of putting most details in the NAME field, some structured fields are slightly hidden.
By default, they are all available on the All tab of the Property Box.

They can also be customized to appear on the Main tab if you wish.

You may also be unaware of Name Qualifiers that allow components of the NAME field to be managed.

If you need more details about those structured Name fields then please ask by Reply.

Perhaps you could provide details of which structured fields you need and how you hope to use them.
Where would they need to appear? Just in the Property Box or also in Diagrams and Reports?

There is already a large number of TMG migrants here using FH. Some have been here many years, and will be happy to give any further advice needed.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by Kaaskop »

Hello Tatewise,

Thanks for your answer!
Sorry but I don't see what you mean by "By default, they are all available on the All tab of the Property Box."
Schermafbeelding 2022-06-16 121516.jpg
Schermafbeelding 2022-06-16 121516.jpg (68.06 KiB) Viewed 3172 times
I see no possibility to insert the pre-surname in a field. The FH documentation says that you have to uses the slashes to include or excludes parts of the surname.
[
Schermafbeelding 2022-06-16 122024.jpg
Schermafbeelding 2022-06-16 122024.jpg (44.9 KiB) Viewed 3172 times
If I click on more... I get :
Schermafbeelding 2022-06-16 122259.jpg
Schermafbeelding 2022-06-16 122259.jpg (36.15 KiB) Viewed 3172 times
As you can see this was imported from TMG (tried directly and via Gedcom) and because FH uses the NAME tag instead of SPFX and SURN (or both). For example it's in this way not possible to alphabetically sort on SURN (that is what we do in the Netherlands).
I like fields for GIVN, SPFX and SURN in addition and want that FH can read an write to them. Also that import is displayed in these fields." Just in the Property Box or also in Diagrams and Reports?" everywhere!

Other (ols)TMG user known to you are maybe from The US or UK, the ones I have spoken to are still struggling with this problem and looking for a solution.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by Jane »

As Mike said you can add any fields you need on the All tab by right clicking on the name.

If FH does not import them, but you could probably write a plugin to recreate them.

You could then customise the columns on the record window and the property box to include the fields.
2022-06-16_115457.jpg
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by Kaaskop »

That helps, thanks!
Indeed that works but I have to do it manually at each record, is that correct?
It doesn't show up at the Main tab. I tried to change anything there but nothing.
If I go to the records window I can configure the Columns but SPFX is there not available.
My first enthusiasm is now somewhat tempered because it seems I don't understand the concept of FH, it's not logical to me where to find these possibility's.
Is writing a plugin not a bit to much asked from a newbie?
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

The technique for handling those fields needs some explanation because they involve some 'advanced' features of FH.
The details for customizing those fields are a little hidden in the same way they were hidden on the All tab.

I think you understand how to enter the details on the All tab.
The Plugin to automatically fill those fields is something one of us experienced users would write for you.
It only needs to be used once after the direct import from TMG.
After that, you could enter them by hand for each new person, or the Plugin would still work too.

SurnameAllTab.png
SurnameAllTab.png (13.4 KiB) Viewed 3154 times

They can be added to the Main tab via the cog Menu > Customize Property Box... and I can give the detailed steps later.

SurnameMainTab.png
SurnameMainTab.png (11.17 KiB) Viewed 3154 times

They can also be added to the Records Window using the Lists > Configure Record Window Columns... command and I can give the detailed steps later. Then you can sort on the Surname column.

SurnameRecordsWindow.png
SurnameRecordsWindow.png (15.27 KiB) Viewed 3154 times
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by Kaaskop »

tatewise wrote: 16 Jun 2022 11:43
The details for customizing those fields are a little hidden in the same way they were hidden on the All tab. but at other places
I think you understand how to enter the details on the All tab. yes

The Plugin to automatically fill those fields is something one of us experienced users would write for you. nice!

They can be added to the Main tab via the cog Menu > Customize Property Box... and I can give the detailed steps later. Do I need first the plugin? because I get to Customize Property Box and then it stops for me...

They can also be added to the Records Window using the Lists > Configure Record Window Columns... command and I can give the detailed steps later. Then you can sort on the Surname column.
Here I come till the Record Window but see then only Lists from the menu (and that is an other list if I'm right?)

Sorry for the colored text, but i hope this is clearer what my reaction is.
I'm glad to see that you all are willing to help new users, how steep is the learning curve? I mean do I have at every report, box, tree or no matter how it's named to learn how to tweak FH at that point?
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by davidf »

tatewise wrote: 16 Jun 2022 09:59 ...
I have moved this posting to the FH General Usage forum because a New Wish List Request is not necessary.

FH supports all the GEDCOM Name structured fields, including SPFX, but because it focuses on the GEDCOM option of putting most details in the NAME field, some structured fields are slightly hidden.
Well is it?

Presumably the First Name /Surname/ entry of names is a "construct" and FH interprets the slashes to derive "name parts" (typically First Names and Surnames). Is there a wish list item to "extend" this handling of "Names"?
tatewise wrote: 16 Jun 2022 11:43 ... After that, you could enter them by hand for each new person, or the Plugin would still work too.
Are you saying the OP would have to enter both the Name ("Dick Corneliz /van Wijk/") using the slashes to allow suitable interpretation, and then the Surname ("Wijk") and the Surname prefix ("van") again? (Which kind of goes against the idea of enter once?)

So I see two alternatives:
  1. Extend the "slash" convention so that you might be able to enter something like "Dick Corneliz /van/Wijk/" or "Dick Corneliz /van~Wijk/" and FH would interpret appropriately (if necessarily populating the Surname Prefix and Surname fields), or
  2. Maintain a user maintainable list of prefixes ("de", "van", "von") at project level which when entered without being hyphenated to the main surname populates the relevant fields.
If the "slash" convention is a "GEDCOM" convention (I see it actually used in a line of GEDCOM) and therefore "not wisely" extended, [1] above would have to be an FH means of entering but not storing structured names - the stored Name field would only include the two slashes - the deconstruction being entered and stored in the relevant fields.

FH when "doing" dialogues, diagrams, reports etc. would then reassemble the "name" displaying it appropriately in diagrams and reports and rebuilding the extended slash convention for data entry fields.

Presumably in things like the records window a "Surname" SURN column would take any value stored in a SURN field or derive it from the NAME field?

If FH can auto handle a NAME being composed of First Names and a Surname, is it a valid wish list request for FH to similarly hand a NAME being composed of First Names, a surname prefix and a Surname?
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

Yes, David, to some extent you are correct.
The NAME "slash" convention is formally defined in the GEDCOM specification.

Until we have explored the current capabilities it is not clear how much needs to be 'improved'.
Anyway, such 'improvements' are not likely to be implemented by FH quickly unless they get a great many Votes.

So for a quick solution, it is better to try using existing features, which even if less than ideal may be sufficient.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

Kaaskop, no it is necessary to have the Plugin to use the customizations.

After using Menu > Customize Property Box... click the Help button and it explains how to add items not listed, which are only the most popular data items.
You will then be presented with a New Item dialogue, and the Help button explains how to use it.
The details to be entered are shown below with the Data References that are fundamental to using FH.

SurnameMainEdit.png
SurnameMainEdit.png (41.51 KiB) Viewed 3123 times

Similarly, after using Lists > Configure Record Window Columns... click the Help and it explains how to add items not listed.
The details to be entered are shown below for the Prefix column and are similar for the Surname column.
Notice how the Expression Data Reference is just like the Customize Property Box.

SurnameRecordsConfig.png
SurnameRecordsConfig.png (54.48 KiB) Viewed 3123 times

I should be able to provide the Plugin later today.
As I said earlier, you don't have to enter the Prefix and Surname as well as the Name field.
Just run the Plugin after adding new people and it will automatically populate those missing field values.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by Kaaskop »

The structured components of the NAME are also formally defined in the GEDCOM specification.
"formally defined in the GEDCOM specification" so you are saying: if you (TMG user from the mainland) need serious working with, for example, the pre-surname (SPFX) don't use Family Historian because it can't handle the Gedcom specification?
If I here that i'm getting confused: FH make a simple solution (Help function) or implementation for this problem. I'm reasonable experienced in genealogy and building databases, it shouldn't be to difficult for me, but it is.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by Kaaskop »

@Mike,
Thanks for your extensive help!
I will the next few days try to follow your steps and see how far I come.
To be honest this is more work then expected and with the remarks of David I'm not sure what to expect.
I tend to agree with David that this problem should be on the Wishlist, I do now understand why former TMG users in the Netherlands told me that they haven't found a suitable alternative.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by davidf »

tatewise wrote: 16 Jun 2022 13:04 Yes, David, to some extent you are correct.
The NAME "slash" convention is formally defined in the GEDCOM specification.

Until we have explored the current capabilities it is not clear how much needs to be 'improved'.
Anyway, such 'improvements' are not likely to be implemented by FH quickly unless they get a great many Votes.

So for a quick solution, it is better to try using existing features, which even if less than ideal may be sufficient.
Thanks for the GEDCOM clarification - which pushes us towards a "process" solution.

Well an Anglo-centric view may see this as not needing improvement and manual work-arounds may suit many. Trying to work out work-arounds is often a good way to specify a wish-list request.

However you hit the issue of sorting compound names as soon as you get a "compound surname" such as "du Bois" in your family tree (or use a "Royal Families of Europe" Family Tree to help understand some history TV programs - does "Richard of York" sort under "York" or "Of York" (FH annoyingly capitalises the first letter in "/of York/")).

Rather than just wish-list something basic like sorting "compound surnames", surely as this post highlights, it is in CP's interest to tackle a wider entering/storing/handling functionality to gain more international (i.e. "non Anglospherical") users. Presumably CP is driven by their perception of "marketability" rather than just wish-list votes - they could decide that a low-voted wish-list item has a potential beyond what we see! Perhaps we should not put-off "wish-list" requests because we (a self-selecting group) "feel" it won't get much support. We could as individuals "lobby" CP customer services, (via support@family-historian.co.uk) for such items - but putting them on the wish list (via prior discussion) exposes the idea and allows others to comment and contribute.

As an aside, for good work-arounds it would be nice to have a facility to trigger a plug-in on a specific event (such as a change to a NAME field) - but that has all sorts of implications ;)
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

We are happy to add Wish List Requests, but only after the existing features have been explored.
As you say, exploring workarounds often clarifies the wish list details. Anyone is welcome to contact CP for support.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

Attached is the Get Prefix and Surname from Name plugin Version 0.1 Date 16 Jun 2022 as promised.

See FHUG Knowledge Base Family Historian Plugins for the background of Plugins.

Clicking the Attachment below should download and install the Plugin into FH automatically.
Then use Tools > Plugins..., select this Plugin and click Run.
It should produce a Result Set listing all the updated Prefix and Surname fields.

This is the first prototype, so may need some tweaking if it does not work exactly as required.

If anything is not as desired then use Edit > Undo Plugin Updates before closing FH.
Last edited by tatewise on 02 Feb 2024 12:06, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Attachment deleted as a better version is attachd later.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by davidf »

Mike

I think (with my inexperienced reading of LUA) that this will trip on a surname like "Vaughan Williams".

Your code appears to say "Prefix is leading non-space chars terminated by a space" - perhaps adding that the first non-space character must be lower case?

No doubt others will point out why that does not work! Then do we have to look at a list of "prefixes"?

Does

Code: Select all

fhInitialise(7,0,0, "save_required")		-- FH V7 and Save required
mean this is V7 specific? Will changing to (6,0,0, make it work on V6 - or is there a V7 specific function in the code?
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

Yes, that is the sort of 'tweaking' I was thinking of.
It may need a length limit on the Prefix and a test for lower case.

Yes, the way the utf8 library is invoked is FH V7 specific. See FHUG Lua References and Library Modules for utf8.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

I think the attached Get Prefix and Surname from Name plugin Version 0.2 Date 16 Jun 2022 limits the Prefix to 4 characters max and it must start with a lower case letter a - z. It also should work for FH V6 but I have not yet double-checked that.
Last edited by tatewise on 02 Feb 2024 12:18, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Attachment deleted as a better version named 'Match Name with Components' is attached later.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by davidf »

Mike,

Thanks for the V6 compatibility

On V6 (under Wine) I get the following error on running the add-in:
Error
Error
Screenshot from 2022-06-16 20-16-09.png (10.2 KiB) Viewed 3027 times
Do you require further info?

Is
Note 2: in ƒh6 you must loadrequire this library using the ‘multiple sub-directories’ version of loadrequire here.
(https://fhug.org.uk/kb/kb-article/lua-r ... y-modules/)
relevant? If so I will need guidance through https://fhug.org.uk/kb/code-snippet/mod ... d/#subdirs
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

Sorry, in haste I got parts of the script in the wrong order. The attachment in my earlier posting has been updated.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by davidf »

Thanks, but

I am tripping on the downloads of utf8 and compat53 getting system? warnings that the download failed before a plug-in warning:
Final Error
Final Error
Screenshot from 2022-06-16 20-48-17.png (17.11 KiB) Viewed 3018 times
Could this be a Wine issue? If so where do I look to download these modules (both .dll?) and where do I need to put them relative to my program folder?

BTW should all those extra lines be outside the if fhGetAppVersion() <= 6 section?

Thanks
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by Kaaskop »

tatewise wrote: 16 Jun 2022 14:51 Attached is the Get Prefix and Surname from Name plugin Version 0.1 Date 16 Jun 2022 as promised.
Hello Mike,
Thanks, I used the plugin and it seems to work fine, I didn't yet check the whole project.
I'm wondering why you have to write a plugin to get the Prefix and Surname from the Name. This information is already in the Gedcom file. Why not reading the Gedcom? Will FH write it to Gedcom or stay SPFX and SURN empty?
I haven't tried.
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by davidf »

K

I think the plug-in does look to see if the information is already in the SPFX and SURN field and only processes if the combination is not the same as what is in the NAME field. I think (not being experienced with LUA) that the line of interest is:

Code: Select all

if strName ~= strSpfx .. strSurn then		-- Name components don't match
By doing this the plug-in has wider applicability and allows you to enter a name completely in the Name field and then have the plug-in populate the other fields.

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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by davidf »

(At the moment in the UK, the Genealogical TV Program Who Do You Think You Are is on so this exchange may slow down!)
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Re: Surname prefix (SPFX)

Post by tatewise »

David, it is known that loading libraries can be problematic with WINE.
Use the Install Library Modules plugin from the Plugin Store.
There is also an issue regarding 'utf8data' that my plugin may not have dealt with if you have downloaded the utf8 library previously.
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