Family Historian User Group

Can anyone else confirm these are problems?

Enable Automatic Source Citations.

Now on the Facts tab, use +Add Fact to add any fact, but do not add any Date, Age, Place, etc, details.
No automatic Source Citation is added to that new fact.

Now on the Facts tab, select any fact and Add any Witness with any Role.
No automatic Source Citation is added to that new witness.

I believe both those additions should gain an automatic Source Citation but they do not.

Hi Mike, FYI - I reported an issue to CP when using Automatic Source Citations. If you entered an Alternative name when ASC is expected to work, no Citation for the Alt Name was created. This has been fixed in 7.0.10.
I'm sure there are many more issues with ASC and what it addresses yet to be discovered.

David, the underlying problem is that all those ASC cases work in FH V6.2.7
So when users upgrade to FH V7 they would expect such established features to continue working.
Users should not need to go through every possible scenario to check that CP have not broken standard features.
It suggests there is something amiss with their regression testing.

Mike

I posted a similar question to CP in November 2021. I can't find a copy of my original enquiry, but this is the reply I got from Ros on 21st Nov.

Witnesses do not have citations of their own the source citation should be added against the fact when the fact is created.

If you subsequently add a witness to an existing fact, the Automatic citation which only adds citations to new facts and records will not add an citation as the fact is already existing. You will need to paste the citation against the existing fact.

I did not pursue it further at this point

Well, that response from Ros contradicts what FH V6.2.7 actually does in several ways!

I've just now double-checked the FH V6.2.7 behaviour with ASC.
Regardless of whether the Principal Fact has the same Citation or not, adding a Fact Witness adds a Citation to the new Witness.

She also claimed that ASC "only adds citations to new facts and records" which is incorrect for both FH V6 and FH V7.
Adding any field value (Date, Age, Place, Address, Note) to an existing Fact will add a Citation if it does not already exist.

Colin, is there any merit in resuming that discussion with Ros armed with the above knowledge of how FH V6.2.7 works?

If not, then I will report these problems and refer to the FH V6.2.7 behaviour.

@Mike I would have and do agree fully with your comment re regression testing, however it would have helped if you had mentioned the underlying issue in your first post. I'm also struggling to think of a user that would enter facts in the way you describe and lacking such basic data.

David, what do you mean by underlying issues?

In my original posting there are two scenarios 1) Add a Fact 2) Add a Fact Witness.
I accept that adding a bare Fact is rare but no reason for ASC not adding a Citation.
Adding a Fact Witness to any existing Fact is extremely common but ASC still adds no Citation.
You found that adding an Alternate Name was not handled by ASC (although that too was OK in FH V6.2.7).
I wonder how many other scenarios have become broken that we have not yet noticed?

David, what do you mean by underlying issues?

I think David's point is that it was only in your second post that you said

David, the underlying problem is that all those ASC cases work in FH V6.2.7

You hadn't mentioned this, or regression testing, in your first post.

Thank you Lorna. Yes it would have been clearer as to how best to help you had we been given the full picture of the issue you had identified between the two versions.

Mike - I have tested two scenarios under FH version 7.0.10 one for Birth and for Occupation without entering supporting information such as date and place. I can confirm your findings that no ASC was created.

When I then go on to enter a place the ASC is created.

I hope that helps.

I tried this and you are right. The automatic source is not entered. in 7 0 9

However there is another shortcoming. I dont think one can automatically add two sources to a new event?
One has to add an event, add 2 sources to that and then copy and paste that event complete with the two sources.

Thank you for your confirmation feedback.

I have discovered another scenario where using the Notes tab to add a Shared Note Record no auto-Citation is added.
In FH V6.2.7 the auto-Citation is added to new Shared Note Record links.

I've reported those inconsistencies to CP and also that the Help page is inaccurate in various ways.
See https://www.family-historian.co.uk/help ... npane.html that says:

When automatic source citations are enabled, the prepared citation will be applied automatically to all new data that you add to your project, when you add it; or to existing data when you modify it.

The claim that a "citation will be applied automatically to all new data" is an exaggeration because many new data fields never get a citation automatically applied, and for some data the citation is applied to the parent fact instead.

Just back and I saw this question

Colin, is there any merit in resuming that discussion with Ros armed with the above knowledge of how FH V6.2.7 works?

I'm pleased to see you've dealt with it with CP. Thanks

Tatewise wrote:

.... and for some data the citation is applied to the parent fact instead.

I'm not an expert on the Gedcom spec so I may be wrong, but I thought that for some data the citation can only be applied to the parent fact. For example fact-level note fields can't have their own citations in Gedcom 5.5.1 so the citiation has to be applied to the fact as a whole. See this topic Note field Citations disallowed in 5.5.1 (17361)

Lorna, you are essentially correct, but...
Fact Place fields and Fact Note fields (despite GEDCOM 5.5.1) do allow Citations in FH V7 but ASC does not use them.
However, that quote is in the context of the Help page claim that a "citation will be applied automatically to all new data".
It does not explain that the citation is sometimes applied to the parent Fact instead of the data itself, and for some new data types a citation is never applied.

BTW: Record level Note fields are also disallowed Citations in GECOM 5.5.1 and yet ASC adds Citations to them!

i.e. As it says in the topic you quoted for FH V7 "CP have gone non-compliant as far as GEDCOM 5.5.1 is concerned."
Also, GEDCOM 7.0 has reverted to GEDCOM 5.5 and kind of justifies the FH V7 non-compliance.