Family Historian User Group

I have entered a Death Registration as a quarter date from the GRO Indexes.
Then I entered the actual date from the certificate and would like this to show as the date of death.
When I reordered the out of sequence dates it places the registration first and I cannot move it in the property box.
Is there any way I can move this as I don't want to remove the registration source?

A quarter date is effectively recorded in the underlying Gedcom file as "from ... to ..." - have you tried putting in a Sort Date on the Registration fact?. I use this regularly where I have this sort issue with two facts.

If I understand correctly you have a custom Death Registration event and a standard Death event.

Facts are automatically sorted by the Date field and with a Quarter Date the first date of the range is used.
That explains the automatic Fact order you are seeing.

Facts are also sorted by their Normal Time Frame which usually overrides the Date.
I suspect that in Tools > Fact Types your custom Death Registration event has a Normal Time Frame of Life, which if you think about it is not rational, and forces that custom fact before the Death event regardless of any Dates.
The Normal Time Frame for your custom event should be Post-Death.
If you edit the change into the custom Death Registration definition it will sort as you require.

BTW: It is possible to override that default sort order on the All tab using the up/down black arrows.
However, any automatic sorting will undo such overrides.

I'm struggling to understand this, but it might be me.

I only have one death fact per individual, since they can only die once.

If I want to cite the GRO index record against the death, I create a source for the record and cite it against the death fact, with the relevant quarter date. If I then obtain a death certificate for the individual, I create another source for the certificate and cite it against the death fact, amending the death date for the fact from the previously recorded quarter date, to the date on the certificate. So there is only one date of death, but it becomes more precise.

But if the issue is that the OP wants two separate facts, one for the GRO index record and another for the death certificate, surely the way around that is to amend the death registration date of the GRO index fact after receiving the certificate? Whilst only the relevant quarter date is initially known, following sight of the death certificate the GRO registration date can either be amended to the registration date shown on the certificate, or if not known a between date of "between <date of death> and <last day of quarter>", since the death can't have been registered before the individual actually died.

Or am I missing something here? Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult, just genuinely trying to understand the issue.

I am like you in that I may well start off with a GRO Quarter date and will then amend it later if I get a more precise date (Death Certificate / Probate record, etc), and will cite both sources in the single Death fact.

I would agree with your second paragraph that if the two separate facts are indeed required, then the Death registration fact date should be "from Date of death to the last day of the Quarter" (assuming that registration occurs in the same quarter as the death!).

Thanks for your input I have the date showing now and will amend the registration date in my project to read the actual date in this case as it is known.
It is still not ordered how I would like but setting a preference altered the date in the property box main screen.

I have amended it to before the registration date as the template I was using adds registration as a death event. I know that the death sometimes will be in the previous quarter but I will leave it as it is as many individuals in my project will not be people for whom I have a certificate.

Thanks Brent. I thought it must just have been me not understanding something. If the death registration took place in a subsequent quarter though, the issue of out of sequence dates in the property box shouldn't arise even if the full quarter date was entered, as the start date will be after the date of death

Yes, I had entered several and not noticed a problem with the others.
I am wondering if I did something different compared to when I entered the others. They have a single death entry with GRO Index attached as a source so I may just adjust to match the others.

Hilary wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2021 08:41

It is still not ordered how I would like but setting a preference altered the date in the property box main screen

Did you follow the advice Mike Tate gave in his post? As he explained, if you have separate facts for death and registration you need to set the normal time frame for registration to after death. If a custom registration fact has a normal time frame of life it will be sorted before the death event regardless of dates. Use Tools>Fact Types and select the custom registration fact then click Edit and amend the Normal Time definition.

Thank you for reiterating that Lorna, but I've experimented with that Normal Time Frame = Post-Death setting.
I have to admit that I was mistaken.
Unfortunately, apart from a Date entry warning, it makes no difference to the sorted fact order.
A custom Post-Death event with say a Q4 1900 date still sorts before a Death event with a Nov or Dec 1900 date!
The Normal Time Frame setting only comes into effect if one or both of the events has no Date.

That's surprising, and I don't think that was the case in V6 (but my memory may be wrong). Should this be raised with CP?

I've just checked FH v6.2 and it behaves the same as in FH v7.0
i.e. The fact Date overrides the Normal Time Frame for the purposes of sorting facts.
I cannot make up my mind as to whether that is a fault or not.

then it would seem for quarter dates they use (in the case of Q4) Sep or 9, or the difference of the two and end up in the end up end of Oct instead of Dec or 12, which I think would probably be the best all around date to sort on, rather than first or midpoint. any way you cut it, there would be the possibility of something being aesthetically displeasing.

My leaning is that FH is making a reasonable choice. To take Mike’s example, if death occurs in Nov or Dec, Q4 is not an accurate recording of the date range for a post-death event, as this includes October. As with all computer systems - nonsense in gives nonsense out...

Quarter dates such as Q4 are the optional FH shorthand display format for FH/GEDCOM Range dates.
Untick Tools > Preferences > Use quarter date display format and FH will show those Range dates.
e.g.
Q1 1900 = btw Jan 1900 and Mar 1900
Q2 1900 = btw Apr 1900 and Jun 1900
Q3 1900 = btw Jul 1900 and Sep 1900
Q4 1900 = btw Oct 1900 and Dec 1900

Start dates without a day number default to the 1st of the month.
So Q4 1900 starts on 1 Oct 1900.
FH sorts Range (and Period) dates using the start date even if that might not be ideal or violates the Normal Time Frame.
So Q4 1900 sorts using 1 Oct 1900, i.e. before all the other dates in Q4.

As has been said earlier, that can be overridden in FH v7.0 by adding a Sort Date to the Quarter Date.